Restore 403 or sacrifice for parts?

[Kevin H]

I received an email today referring to this 403 on ebay which is currently at £500. The comment was made "Yes the Poms ravaged another restorable Bristol."

But restorable at what cost? It sounds like a bit of a basket case, and the restoration cost would surely be far in excess of what it could be worth in the foreseeable future, even with it's engine and gearbox.

I wonder what it would have cost with the engine and gearbox, maybe £5k? That's a pretty cheap way to get an engine and gearbox for your AC, that would be worth many times more than the Bristol.

At £500 it's certainly doomed now, because the parts value must be several times that.

The only way to stop this happening is raise the profile of the Bristol marque and ultimately raise the value of the old cars.

[Ashley James]

Prices are far too low and rebuilding cars in the UK now, although
done to a high standard, can be two or three times the price the
same work done in Australia, New Zealand, The States and South
Africa. However I believe that the collectors will do it once they
are more aware of the cars and how good they are. Having just
finished a total and comprehensive rebuild of a 400, I'm betting on
it. For me they are a better and more useable car than the sports
cars that used the engine, not as fast but excellent high speed
touring cars and perfect for the posh concours events.

Mine may be used to open racing each day at the forthcoming Goodwood
Revival and also to commemorate the sixtieth anniversary. The Duke of
Richmond owned one the same Cambridge Grey colour and used it to open
the circuit, mine will pretend to be his.

I must admit that I couldn't face the thought of three days of the
revival meeting and there didn't seem to be many freebies on offer so
Andrew Blow is trying to persuade me to let him use it, which I will
probably do. It's a bit of a wrench after so much work and having been
through hell with various teething problems.

400s are going up now and they have the best sporting credentials, but
I really hope the few 403s that remain will be restored too.

Ashley

[RGSchmitt]

Ashley -

It would be interesting, though perhaps difficult, to compare
restoration costs in the various locations you mentioned. The UK may
be "high", but I doubt if the US is far behind, especially if you use
a shop that actually does high-quality work on any sort of
schedule! I think of my friend with an Abarth, now in its 4th shop
and 10th year "under restoration" and still not done!

I was SO fortunate to get a recommendation for a great shop in NZ
which restored my car at a fair price. More important - no attitude,
no excuses, on schedule!

Bob

[406Special]

It all boils down to time and rate set against speed and quality of
work. I could have sent my 406 to Oz or even NZ, but like all
outsourcing, it's the travel and back and forth management and
confidence that are always add on costs. I found a reliable,
trustworthy local outfit with a massive reputation and a fair minded
attitude coupled with an enthusiasm for my eccentric wishes. When
factoring in the actual rate and what they actually do charge me for,
I feel confident that my budget is well within the bounds of reality
(confirmed by Alpine Eagle). I also get a more hands on approach to
my tastes and as things change in my needs/wishes these are easily
communicated as the car is only 13 miles from home. When something
needs a physical inspection I can do it easily. When doing a special
and the design criteria are broadly speaking broad, it pays to have
it close.

I guess if you wanted a simple straight forward as new restoration
and the outfit knows what they are doing, then perhaps a hands-off
approach may be possible in which case my approach above doesn't need
to be the case.

Of course a vehicle with a massive upside to restored value, over and
above the acquisition and restoration costs may well be a candidate
for outsourcing - as long as the outfit can do the work to the
required standard. Lastly one must also consider transportation/tax/
duty implications.

As I mentioned elsewhere recently, the Maharaja of Jodhpur flew his
1928 Phantom over to have it restored cosmetically at Alpine Eagle.
It is no consequence that the cost and rate are far in excess of that
in India, however he is paying for the expertise and quality. It
will be worth more when it leaves the UK than when it arrived.

Clyde

[Ashley James]

it's a tricky one but usually the Dollar is worth a pound in these
comparisons. I think its about 1.8 to the pound right now.

Ash

[Claude]

Originally Posted by Kevin Howard

I received an email today referring to this 403 on ebay which is currently at £500. The comment was made "Yes the Poms ravaged another restorable Bristol."

But restorable at what cost? It sounds like a bit of a basket case, and the restoration cost would surely be far in excess of what it could be worth in the foreseeable future, even with it's engine and gearbox.

I wonder what it would have cost with the engine and gearbox, maybe £5k? That's a pretty cheap way to get an engine and gearbox for your AC, that would be worth many times more than the Bristol.

At £500 it's certainly doomed now, because the parts value must be several times that.

The only way to stop this happening is raise the profile of the Bristol marque and ultimately raise the value of the old cars.

People look at life in different ways. Some people go into a car dealer and buy a new car, even though as soon as they drive it out the door, it is worth less money. It depreciates at a shocking rate and five years later, even though it does the same thing (move one from point A to B), they have lost a lot of money.

Other people would never buy a new car, for that very reason. Instead they take advantage of the depreciation.

Buying a candidate for restoration fits in the same class. You buy it to get "your" car, to get it made in the form you want. It is not an investment (except as a justification to ones wife... the utterly practical one), it is a pleasure. Sure one could look for someone else's folly, but in the Bristol 403 world, there are far too few of these. One could pay considerably more and buy a runner, and then do a running restoration, but often one finds the same equally expensive corrosion - hidden below a nice paint job.

As Bristol supporters, we want to see these historic vehicles saved. Thus, we should do all we can to encourage those with a deep pocket and passion to take the plunge.

For the chequebook restorer, I suggest two options...

1.) Have the factory redo it. Send a blank cheque in and don't ask your accountant what the final number was. Enjoy.

2) Send it to Auto Restorations Ltd. in Christchurch NZ (see http://www.autorestorations.co.nz/) and relax. They will send it back within a year to the standard you require, all the way up to Pebble Beach winner, at a reasonable price, about NZ $60 hour.

Claude

[406Special]

Claude, interesting that the rate you suggest is about £24 an hour,
say £25 for ease of calculation Allowing for say an equivalent
number of hours whether here (UK) or there, one needs to factor the
cost of shipping to and from NZ to adjust the final cost. I reckon
on about £4k minimum to and from, or around 160 hours labour. As
long as the actual restoration is large enough to swallow this
overhead, then it is worth considering, but I'd also factor in
another £4k spent on travelling to keep an eye on things say at least
2 trips or more, making the overhead about £8k, might be somewhat
less, but a keen owner will want to see it a few times me thinks.

To keep things in perspective, I am paying £35 an hour in
Oxfordshire, UK, with many hours unaccounted because of development
and my involvement (minimal). My budget is a total of £35k for body
and cosmetics and £10k for mechanical - engine through suspension,
brakes, etc. which is all being done at £25 an hour! At 40% extra
cost on the car body and cosmetics, lets say the NZ approach would
save before overhead about £10k or not much more than the overhead I
must assume during the build if in NZ. Therefore my extra cost to
have the convenience and closeness of local restoration is a few
thousand pounds. It needs to be a sizeable restoration, like Claude
has suggested - like sending it back to BCL with an open chequebook
to justify outsourcing to NZ or similar. Canny careful selection
here in UK can produce pretty good results. But don't be fooled, it
will never be worth as much I am investing! I am doing it for me.

Clyde

[Kevin H]

I have spent a day with the guys at Alipine Eagle (along with Clyde and Sam Frost) and I can confidently say you would struggle to find anyone in Australia with the same level of skill, knowledge and experience at a lower cost, in fact you would struggle to even match the price.

As for restoring the 403 in question, as Claude points out there is a lot to be said for starting from scratch and assuming the worst, rather than buying a runner for considerably more in unknown condition. There's just one problem - where is the engine and gearbox going to come from?

[Claude]

Clyde,

For the Interactive Restorer, to coin a phrase, I would agree you want to find someone nearby.

In contrast, for the person who wants to ship and collect, however, NZ still has something to offer. Many of their customers do not ever visit NZ, they simply send the car off and a year later get it back... some are shipped directly to the Concours. The place has an excellent reputation and their shop is astonishing... everything is done in house, including making new engine blocks if someone wanted it. Shipping? RoRo is about $1700 USD UK-> Christchurch Contact Wallenius Wilhelmsen Logistics UK. The appeal of this approach is for people who want it done right, but don't want to think about the process.

For such a person, the only trip one would consider is a driving holiday at the end which is in pleasure, not a part of the restoration.

Claude

[alistair]

Re the Ebay discussion Aerodyne values have undoubtedly been increasing in UK in the last couple of years. Or the values of running cars have certainly increased. So we have a situation where a top 403 with upgrades (needs to have a 100 series engine, remote control, disc brakes and overdrive - few have) is worth GBP30,000. But we also have seen the value of 100 series engines increase. A 100 series engine and gearbox will cost GBP8-10,000 if you can find one and may cost the same amount again to rebuild. So its all about engine values. Sadly there is no way it makes economic sense to try and restore an engineless car unless the shell, paint and interior are exceptional.

There are lots of engineless 403s, 405s and 406s around (and AC Greyhounds) where the engine has been removed to be fitted to a more valuable AC - often to convert AC Aces and Acecas built with AC engines to Bristol power.

A really well sorted Bristol engine is just a wonderful thing - more people are realising this at the time when the number of sound engines is decreasing. Lets hope with the new regime at the factory they might be able to help in the future!

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted by alistair

There are lots of engineless 403s, 405s and 406s around (and AC Greyhounds) where the engine has been removed to be fitted to a more valuable AC - often to convert AC Aces and Acecas built with AC engines to Bristol power.

A really well sorted Bristol engine is just a wonderful thing - more people are realising this at the time when the number of sound engines is decreasing. Lets hope with the new regime at the factory they might be able to help in the future!

I didn't realise they were even robbing them out of AC Greyhounds. A similar things has happened with other marques. Aston DBSs are having their 6 cylinder engines ripped out for DB4, 5 & 6. Also Ferrari 250 GTE's were being sacrificed for their chassis, engine and transmission to build replica 250 GTOs. Although in both cases it was probably only cars in need of total restoration that were being sacrificed.

As for the factory building new 6 cylinder engines, another option could be for them too cooperate with a third party who would be prepared to do it. Such as someone who was already set up to make blocks and heads, although of course you would still need all the other components.

There's a UK company who make (or at least used to make) new 'improved' blocks and heads for the DB2 and DB MkIII. With the combined number of Bristols, ACs, Arnolts and Frazer Nashes in existence there must be greater demand than for the Astons.

It's good to hear the Aerodynes are increasing in value, but I wonder if more can be done to raise the profile of the marque (they probably need to be raced!).

[Ashley James]

Interestingly 400s have gone up quite steeply, two have recently
sold for around £25K. These were sound original cars needing some
work and a rather better one made almost £40K. The Bristol problem
is a plethora of scruffy cars, people in the main, won't buy work
and neither can they imagine what a finished properly restored car
might look like. Once there are some really immaculate examples in
eye catching (but original) colours at events like the Goodwood
Revival, I think prices will rise more.
Anything else eligible for so many important historical events fetches
far more than Bristols, which is sad.

Ash

[406Special]

At the BOC GM this year a chap from a local company (I forget which
one - but I did speak to him after) said that the factory (BCL) were
co-operating by way of supplying original drawings for the 6 cylinder
block and head. It was his company's intention to cast new improved
blocks, then if demand required it, new heads as well. Apparently
internals are available new, but blocks and heads are not and that is
why many cars are sacrificed to the greater good of those
remaining. As to cost, 18 months ago my 406's engine and gearbox
fetched I believe just over £6k and that's a 2.2 with a 4 speed
+o'drive 110 unit, the one most favoured as an upgrade to prior
models and other Bristol engine sports. It allegedly had been
rebuilt but was sold requiring a strip down and rebuild with careful
checking of fit etc of parts. The chap above at the BOC GM said he
expected new blocks to retail for around £5k. Assuming heads are
close on £2k, then £10k for a new Bristol engine (improved so he
says) sounds about right. If this be the case then it will surely
bring down the cost of the purchase of older/worn engines for
restoration. I just can't remember the company's name - perhaps
someone can shed light although I am also sure they regularly
advertise in the Bulletin.

I think that a 403/405/406 without a Bristol engine doesn't mean the
car is worthless - although I do believe they are a bargain. Anyone
contemplating a restoration should not think cheap and quick, but be
prepared to do an inside out rebuild to ensure longevity and improved
construction - hence an engineless car is often a better staring
point as it means the initial cost is tiny compared to the
restoration. Indeed, as long as what is installed has a similar
dimension and weight distribution, then the finished car should ride/
handle and look/feel like new. As an engine/gearbox rebuild of a 2
litre is somewhere between £6-12k, plus the cost of the base unit/
car, one has to be into originality of the power train to want to
invest that sought of money. The whole Bristol driving experience,
IMHO can be improved in a number of areas: Brakes (Coopercraft front
callipers + dual circuit), shocks, wheels & tyres, as well as
improved engine and better gear ratios. Although this is not
justification for my actions, I am seeking to get a more performant
car with traditional simplicity and quality engineering in a classic
Bristol. My car will pretty much look and behave like a standard
car, but go faster, stop better and hopefully handle/ride better
whilst having more comfort and convenience. It even has a
collapsible steering column for added safety! As Bristols have
always been customised to suit the owner (to a point) and that many
have been modified in some way for better performance etc., I see not
issue with replacing the original highly over-square long stroke
small six with something more modern and less costly that has better
performance and lower ongoing costs.

Clyde

[Ashley James]

TT Workshops are having both heads and blocks cast at about £7.5K ea
and I think they are having made or are making lots of parts for
late BMW and early Bristols.
Alpine Eagle are great friends, I had the onerous task of writing the
funeral address for poor Roy Partridge, he was a remarkable man with a
knowledge of coachwork that few could equal. I helped with their
website and Rich, my son worked there for 7 years before starting
he trimmed that remarkable Kadoori Ghost and supervised the rebuild
of a couple of PIII's before he left. Few R-R and B restorers have won
more awards internationally or over a longer period.

Brian May has been accumulating parts for years now so that he can
sell cannibalised cars with enough bits to complete them for anyone
brave enough to take them on. There are two 405 DHCs, several 401-3s,
several 400s and some 405s and 406s. He also has a few V8's that are
on the road. He has a wonderful original 403 that he's joined us in
France with for the last few years. He's very popular and he and Jean
usually sing to us as the end of the holiday approaches.

Rich has done bits of 328s and a fair bit of my car, but he'd love to
rebuild an early Bristol. It's been mostly Bentley R types this year
although he is going to trim the Maharajah of Johdpur's at AE.

I think the most likely Bristols to be worth the investment are the
400s and the 403's, the 404 already has it's following and is secure.

Interesting to hear your comments on modifications. I've fitted and
overdrive, a 100B2 Bottom end, a Delco Remy distributor, Alfin brake drums and a Lockeed
Servo.

Ashley

[seanmcs]

Well, I like this enthusiasm. I did a bit to a 401, and that went
North in NSW in Julian's hands and is still a good runner. My
beautiful 406 is now in Victoria and an excellent car. The 405 was
really only second to the Isos in New Zealand. A fantastic charger.
Now the 406 Zagato is close to metal finish in Dubbo. Bas and I were
with the Nugents last week and it looks like they will be finished
in October. The quality is outstanding. Bas has all the mechanicals
done and somewhat as usual, the 110 engine has only done 50,0000
miles and the pistons and gearbox are outstanding. The only thing is
I can't quite swallow the original orange-red paint. Something more
like Mudgee honey over a white plate in mind.

Sean

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted by Ashley James

TT Workshops are having both heads and blocks cast at about £7.5K ea

£15k for a bare block and head?

That's going to end up being an expensive exercise. Probably worth it if you are restoring an AC Ace, but not a fixed head AC. Still makes it worth buying a tatty old 6 cyl Bristol for it's engine and transmission, unfortunately.

[406Special]

Ashley, next time I get a gathering of Bristol owners to pop along
for tea and bikkies at AE with John and his team you should join us.
John never entioned he knew someone with a Bristol (you) - very small
world.

My 406 is in a lock up on the Little Clanfield site which is owned by
Ed Stephens (very nice man & enthusiast come Aga expert and water
mill collector).

I am waiting until we have the engine back ready for install before
we venture down later in year.

Clyde

[Ashley James]

Clyde - I've seen your car along there and would love to meet up if
there is a gathering. John's been over to Rich's workshop and seen
my car but he's delightfully absent minded!


Ash

[seanmcs]

Thinking about the values of the cars, I have the impression that
the Fighter has brought the Bristol name back into public focus in
the UK. Certainly the membership of the BOC has climbed a lot in the
last three years. I noticed some spectacular prices for a couple of
Arnolts in the USA earlier this year. I'd also imagine a Zagato 406
would be receiving a lot of interest if one were available! Only 5
around plus the 2-3 on 400 chassis. My own limited experience is
that the 405 has been the best handling Bristol I have ever had - it
will be interesting to see how the 406Z will compare. Body nearly
finished now and assemble, take down, paint, upholster and fit
screen then re-assemble to come. Maybe by March.

Sean

[Ashley James]

I've not long completed a total rebuild of my 400, which coincidentally is the same colour (well sort of!) as the car that the Duke of Richmond and Gordon used to open the Goodwood Circuit in 1948.

To commemorate this auspicious event (the 60th anniversary), my car is to open the meeting, doing a few parade laps with Lord March in it, starting the racing each day and spending the rest of its time in an enclosure set aside to display the previous Duke's cars.

The thought of four days, taking time off work and the misery that is getting in and out of these affairs, rather put me off attending. Therefore I've lent the car to Andrew Blow who's generously offered to do it. It was a wrench after so much work and expense, but it seems like an excellent way to dangle a very good example of a 400 under the noses of some of the World's top collectors and hopefully make them feel like buying and restoring one.

If anyone is going to the Goodwood Revival with a camera, I'd love some photos. It's a green (Cambridge Grey) 400 and was made in 1949


Ashley