Restore 403 or sacrifice for parts?

[Kevin H]

I received an email today referring to this 403 on ebay which is currently at £500. The comment was made "Yes the Poms ravaged another restorable Bristol."

But restorable at what cost? It sounds like a bit of a basket case, and the restoration cost would surely be far in excess of what it could be worth in the foreseeable future, even with it's engine and gearbox.

I wonder what it would have cost with the engine and gearbox, maybe £5k? That's a pretty cheap way to get an engine and gearbox for your AC, that would be worth many times more than the Bristol.

At £500 it's certainly doomed now, because the parts value must be several times that.

The only way to stop this happening is raise the profile of the Bristol marque and ultimately raise the value of the old cars.

[Ashley James]

Prices are far too low and rebuilding cars in the UK now, although
done to a high standard, can be two or three times the price the
same work done in Australia, New Zealand, The States and South
Africa. However I believe that the collectors will do it once they
are more aware of the cars and how good they are. Having just
finished a total and comprehensive rebuild of a 400, I'm betting on
it. For me they are a better and more useable car than the sports
cars that used the engine, not as fast but excellent high speed
touring cars and perfect for the posh concours events.

Mine may be used to open racing each day at the forthcoming Goodwood
Revival and also to commemorate the sixtieth anniversary. The Duke of
Richmond owned one the same Cambridge Grey colour and used it to open
the circuit, mine will pretend to be his.

I must admit that I couldn't face the thought of three days of the
revival meeting and there didn't seem to be many freebies on offer so
Andrew Blow is trying to persuade me to let him use it, which I will
probably do. It's a bit of a wrench after so much work and having been
through hell with various teething problems.

400s are going up now and they have the best sporting credentials, but
I really hope the few 403s that remain will be restored too.

Ashley

[RGSchmitt]

Ashley -

It would be interesting, though perhaps difficult, to compare
restoration costs in the various locations you mentioned. The UK may
be "high", but I doubt if the US is far behind, especially if you use
a shop that actually does high-quality work on any sort of
schedule! I think of my friend with an Abarth, now in its 4th shop
and 10th year "under restoration" and still not done!

I was SO fortunate to get a recommendation for a great shop in NZ
which restored my car at a fair price. More important - no attitude,
no excuses, on schedule!

Bob

[406Special]

It all boils down to time and rate set against speed and quality of
work. I could have sent my 406 to Oz or even NZ, but like all
outsourcing, it's the travel and back and forth management and
confidence that are always add on costs. I found a reliable,
trustworthy local outfit with a massive reputation and a fair minded
attitude coupled with an enthusiasm for my eccentric wishes. When
factoring in the actual rate and what they actually do charge me for,
I feel confident that my budget is well within the bounds of reality
(confirmed by Alpine Eagle). I also get a more hands on approach to
my tastes and as things change in my needs/wishes these are easily
communicated as the car is only 13 miles from home. When something
needs a physical inspection I can do it easily. When doing a special
and the design criteria are broadly speaking broad, it pays to have
it close.

I guess if you wanted a simple straight forward as new restoration
and the outfit knows what they are doing, then perhaps a hands-off
approach may be possible in which case my approach above doesn't need
to be the case.

Of course a vehicle with a massive upside to restored value, over and
above the acquisition and restoration costs may well be a candidate
for outsourcing - as long as the outfit can do the work to the
required standard. Lastly one must also consider transportation/tax/
duty implications.

As I mentioned elsewhere recently, the Maharaja of Jodhpur flew his
1928 Phantom over to have it restored cosmetically at Alpine Eagle.
It is no consequence that the cost and rate are far in excess of that
in India, however he is paying for the expertise and quality. It
will be worth more when it leaves the UK than when it arrived.

Clyde

[Ashley James]

it's a tricky one but usually the Dollar is worth a pound in these
comparisons. I think its about 1.8 to the pound right now.

Ash

[Claude]

Originally Posted by Kevin Howard

I received an email today referring to this 403 on ebay which is currently at £500. The comment was made "Yes the Poms ravaged another restorable Bristol."

But restorable at what cost? It sounds like a bit of a basket case, and the restoration cost would surely be far in excess of what it could be worth in the foreseeable future, even with it's engine and gearbox.

I wonder what it would have cost with the engine and gearbox, maybe £5k? That's a pretty cheap way to get an engine and gearbox for your AC, that would be worth many times more than the Bristol.

At £500 it's certainly doomed now, because the parts value must be several times that.

The only way to stop this happening is raise the profile of the Bristol marque and ultimately raise the value of the old cars.

People look at life in different ways. Some people go into a car dealer and buy a new car, even though as soon as they drive it out the door, it is worth less money. It depreciates at a shocking rate and five years later, even though it does the same thing (move one from point A to B), they have lost a lot of money.

Other people would never buy a new car, for that very reason. Instead they take advantage of the depreciation.

Buying a candidate for restoration fits in the same class. You buy it to get "your" car, to get it made in the form you want. It is not an investment (except as a justification to ones wife... the utterly practical one), it is a pleasure. Sure one could look for someone else's folly, but in the Bristol 403 world, there are far too few of these. One could pay considerably more and buy a runner, and then do a running restoration, but often one finds the same equally expensive corrosion - hidden below a nice paint job.

As Bristol supporters, we want to see these historic vehicles saved. Thus, we should do all we can to encourage those with a deep pocket and passion to take the plunge.

For the chequebook restorer, I suggest two options...

1.) Have the factory redo it. Send a blank cheque in and don't ask your accountant what the final number was. Enjoy.

2) Send it to Auto Restorations Ltd. in Christchurch NZ (see http://www.autorestorations.co.nz/) and relax. They will send it back within a year to the standard you require, all the way up to Pebble Beach winner, at a reasonable price, about NZ $60 hour.

Claude

[406Special]

Claude, interesting that the rate you suggest is about £24 an hour,
say £25 for ease of calculation Allowing for say an equivalent
number of hours whether here (UK) or there, one needs to factor the
cost of shipping to and from NZ to adjust the final cost. I reckon
on about £4k minimum to and from, or around 160 hours labour. As
long as the actual restoration is large enough to swallow this
overhead, then it is worth considering, but I'd also factor in
another £4k spent on travelling to keep an eye on things say at least
2 trips or more, making the overhead about £8k, might be somewhat
less, but a keen owner will want to see it a few times me thinks.

To keep things in perspective, I am paying £35 an hour in
Oxfordshire, UK, with many hours unaccounted because of development
and my involvement (minimal). My budget is a total of £35k for body
and cosmetics and £10k for mechanical - engine through suspension,
brakes, etc. which is all being done at £25 an hour! At 40% extra
cost on the car body and cosmetics, lets say the NZ approach would
save before overhead about £10k or not much more than the overhead I
must assume during the build if in NZ. Therefore my extra cost to
have the convenience and closeness of local restoration is a few
thousand pounds. It needs to be a sizeable restoration, like Claude
has suggested - like sending it back to BCL with an open chequebook
to justify outsourcing to NZ or similar. Canny careful selection
here in UK can produce pretty good results. But don't be fooled, it
will never be worth as much I am investing! I am doing it for me.

Clyde

[Kevin H]

I have spent a day with the guys at Alipine Eagle (along with Clyde and Sam Frost) and I can confidently say you would struggle to find anyone in Australia with the same level of skill, knowledge and experience at a lower cost, in fact you would struggle to even match the price.

As for restoring the 403 in question, as Claude points out there is a lot to be said for starting from scratch and assuming the worst, rather than buying a runner for considerably more in unknown condition. There's just one problem - where is the engine and gearbox going to come from?

[Claude]

Clyde,

For the Interactive Restorer, to coin a phrase, I would agree you want to find someone nearby.

In contrast, for the person who wants to ship and collect, however, NZ still has something to offer. Many of their customers do not ever visit NZ, they simply send the car off and a year later get it back... some are shipped directly to the Concours. The place has an excellent reputation and their shop is astonishing... everything is done in house, including making new engine blocks if someone wanted it. Shipping? RoRo is about $1700 USD UK-> Christchurch Contact Wallenius Wilhelmsen Logistics UK. The appeal of this approach is for people who want it done right, but don't want to think about the process.

For such a person, the only trip one would consider is a driving holiday at the end which is in pleasure, not a part of the restoration.

Claude

[alistair]

Re the Ebay discussion Aerodyne values have undoubtedly been increasing in UK in the last couple of years. Or the values of running cars have certainly increased. So we have a situation where a top 403 with upgrades (needs to have a 100 series engine, remote control, disc brakes and overdrive - few have) is worth GBP30,000. But we also have seen the value of 100 series engines increase. A 100 series engine and gearbox will cost GBP8-10,000 if you can find one and may cost the same amount again to rebuild. So its all about engine values. Sadly there is no way it makes economic sense to try and restore an engineless car unless the shell, paint and interior are exceptional.

There are lots of engineless 403s, 405s and 406s around (and AC Greyhounds) where the engine has been removed to be fitted to a more valuable AC - often to convert AC Aces and Acecas built with AC engines to Bristol power.

A really well sorted Bristol engine is just a wonderful thing - more people are realising this at the time when the number of sound engines is decreasing. Lets hope with the new regime at the factory they might be able to help in the future!

[peterg]

I think it is very sad. I own one with the same registration letters and can say with confidence that it is a 1953 car sold by Anothony Crook, probably from his Hersham garage

[Calibrator]

I think you're quite right. I came across the remnants of an Anthony Crook metallic label under the rear seat squab.

I've sourced a TR6 engine and gearbox with all ancillaries at a reasonable price. Collecting it on Wednesday. Only hope it fits!