NEW CAR AGAIN.... 1956 Bristol 405 CHASSIS - 4106. 405GMT
 

NEW CAR AGAIN.... 1956 Bristol 405 CHASSIS - 4106. 405GMT

Hi all,

Me here again !

so i've bought another Bristol this morning !

its a

Bristol 405
1956
405GMT
Chassis number: 4106

from ACA AUCTIONS

When/If you get round to restoring this car do yourself a favour and take as much of the interior trim out as you can very carefully then the dash panels, I suspect you will find the wood frame is rotten, don't be tempted to then pull the whole thing apart but leaving the panels on as a reference point build from the inside out. It can be done get an aluminium frame fabricated to support and follow the contours of the panels then screw, bond or rivet it into place.
Without wood in the structure the 405 would have been possibly the best 2 litre car Bristol ever made but sadly not as constructed.
Geoff.

ACA auctions 405
 

This is the one I posted about, no reserve, no engine but had gear box .
Hope you get it back on the road, glad to see it went to a member.
Appropriate registration plate .
Keep us in touch with your progress. Hope you have fun with it , loads of work but all seemed to be there apart from the engine.

Good morning Hesketh. Do you happen to know how much the 403 went for?

Was is very rotten?

I watched the auction online. I think the 403 went for about £15000 plus commission . Of course not seeing the car I’ve no idea of how bad it was.

Thanks for that. I thought it would probably go over the estimate. I think the rot can be hidden from view.

I have been bitten like that before. The MG TC I bought a couple of years ago looked nice; it had new paint and trim but the old git had painted over the rust and trimmed over rotten wood. I ended up having to replace the body,,,etc, etc,etc.

Results are on line now and given at £16308 inc premium so a similar figure to a 401 sold on ebay earlier in the year except on that one the paint was not good, as the link I sent on the rebuild cost topic shows there can be quite a few rust issues to sort out on 401's and 403's unless they have been done or you are exceptionally lucky.
The first place I always check is the back corner of the main chassis in front of the wheels, the steel in this area was overlapped and not unusual for it to be rotted through or starting to bulge which means as some point sooner or later work will be needed, if its very bad its a good indicator of what the rest is likely to be like.
The area between the sills and the chassis is usually enclosed with an alloy cover so issues can be hidden but if the sills and out riggers are bad this can often be eased back to get a peak at the chassis.
Mike spent about 65 hours doing very similar structural repairs to those shown in the link to put it into context on one of my 401's.
As a starting point for a project I think this might have been a good buy, if the leather was not dried out it looked as though it may come up quite nicely and the sun blinds were there which is a bonus as they can be quite expensive.
As regards the 405 I have a few bits, not much and nothing mechanical salvaged off a very rotten 405 so if there is anything missing Hesketh let me know and I'll see if I can help. This includes the front and rear glass and some door fittings.
Geoff.

I think there is something to be said for buying the best you can afford. My last two classic cars have both come in from Australia and have been beautifully rust free.

dear all !

thank you so much for your kind words and helpful comments.

the 403 went for £16308 as Geoff mentioned. ACA weren't very helpfully in sending more photos of either cars, i suspect due to the rot as you have all pointed out.

i've spoke to R Hackett @ SLJ he's trying to find me a suitable engine or if anyone on here knows or can point me in the right direction for one please let me know !

very interesting to read about the wooden frame so thank you Geoff, i will definitely be taking it apart very carefully and documenting with many pics and video of the location of all parts, i will look into getting a metal frame made as you say.

the 405 should hopefully be arriving later this week so will get it cleaned up and post more photos of it.

i probably wont be starting to do anything yet on it just hunt and buy parts and clean it up as i have the 411s3, 408 and the 407 in line for resto before this one !

thank you all so much again and please let me know if you know any history about this car !

stay safe

Best
Hesketh

405
 

Congrats - Uncle's going to be busy for a while.......!

@AndrewA

thanks so much !

hahaha CLASSIC ! I haven't told him about this one yet....

405
 

Saw this one on car and classic https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1354795
the two tone paint really suits the shape IMHO.
On the engine front - if you're not completely wedded to originality - a more 21st Century solution could be in order - electric, hybrid or I note there's a company in Cornwall doing Hydrogen conversions for cars!
Best
Andrew

I don't suppose an XK engine would fit would it.? My guess is it won't. The only easy fit I have heard of is the Volvo red block. There are doubtless others??

Personally, I would try and find the right thing ... which might be a like be looking for the Holy Grail.!

The XK will fit but not easy and not the best option, Triumph 2000/2500 not a bad conversion also Rover V8 but the one that has always struck me as a nice option was the Daimler V8 250 especially if mated to a manual box.
For the ultimate 401 it would have to be the BMW V8 of the same period going to the capacity and power that AFN wanted but these engines are expensive now.
I find it rather ironic that cars like the 403 and the 401 that sold earlier this year for similar money sell easily yet I had no interest in a running useable 401 I offered for sale all summer in the mid £20k's and only one view and a very poor offer on a car which has had a lot more done to it and for which I would take £32k for, you would never get either of the auction cars to similar condition for the difference, funny old world.
Geoff.

Geoff. I expect you will find a buyer before too long. If you don't mind me saying, I think some interior shots might help and maybe, if possible, a correct type steering wheel fitted. If it were me I would strip it down to bare metal so as not to look like it's been quite so much in the wars.

I have read about the Triumph 2000 engine being suitable.
As it happens I had a GT6 for 38 years so know that engine intimately. I am also familiar with the XK engine but somehow never worked on the 250 V8. I understand it can be very smooth - so a good alternative if the original is not available.

I always thought a BMW CS engine would be ideal, keeping it in the family. They used to be cheap and readily available in the '80s when I was seriously considering such a project.

There seem to be quite a few cars around missing their engine.

Raymond,
Thanks for giving me some more work to do! I started stripping the paint down in the late 70's must not rush these things! the red and blue, wings straight out of a rattle can as I was trying to decide on a colour.
When I bought the car it was yellow, initial stripping was with Nitromors but my painter told me not to use chemical paint stripper on aluminium as it absorbs it to a certain extent and it can ruin a paint job. Using a DA sander I must admit I was being very cautious because they mark the surface but watching him strip and prepare the alloy panels on my Range Rover I am going when I get a chance try and get most of the rest of the paint off and the few bits of alloy repairs done. To get a decent interior shot the re trimmed door cards need to go back on. The steering wheel which was on the car when it was advertised in motor sport in 1968 I have failed to find an obvious way of removing, the top of the column has been shortened so I have left it where it is, have another column and a decent correct wheel to go with the car.
One thing with this wheel as well it is a smaller diameter, this makes the steering a bit heavier but more direct even a slight input gets instant reaction which actually makes the car more involving to drive.
A very good friend of mine Mike Brockway has a 403 which after an engine failure a few years ago was fitted with a Triumph 2000 engine and box, about a year ago the engine was changed to a rebuilt 2500 unit on carbs, he loved the car with either engine in and preferred it to his other 403 with its standard 100A power unit, he sold that car a few years ago but will never part with the Triumph engined car, the nice thing about it as well is it sounds lovely and I was told was not a difficult conversion.
Geoff.

Oh dear. Sorry Geoff...didn't mean to get off to a bad start with the forum!

By coincidence, today I have been sanding down the bonnet of my TC project. I have been struggling with the louvres because I suffer from painful fingers.

Good to know my favourite engine will fit the car if I ever need it to. My GT6 Mk3 became like a hand in a glove. Not everyone's cup of tea of course and not very nice in the wet (especially when pushed!) but having restored it twice in my ownership I knew every nut and bolt.

It's funny what you can get used to.

yes great point Raymond, I see so many Bristols with no engines ?!

Can anyone shed light on this as to why they go missing ?

What about converting it to electric.... or am i asking for it...

I don't know for sure but I think it highly likely these poor old cars have been savaged by people who go racing.

as for converting to electric; the idea scares me. My wife has a Lexus hybrid... there are "keep out" signs under the bonnet!

Raymond,
You did not get off to a bad start at all on the forum, your comments about the paint on LRU and better interiors shots made me laugh but I hate adding LOL after a comment far too new a phrase for an old luddite like me, I also like to get the old wooden spoon out to stir things up so beware.
I would strongly and seriously however advise anyone considering converting any Bristol to electric to forget it, I 'll say no more on the forum but if anyone wants to know the reason behind this comment please send me a private message, suffice to say a lot of conversions like this are dangerous in more ways than just a keep out sign.

Hesketh,
The engine robbing has been going on for years, when I started running Bristol 401's they cost about £150 to £250 each a 405 more if good but with wood rot less a 406 £450 max. Engine dies then buy another car to use or rob the engine out of. Then the AC Ace factor, a lot found their way to the US, taken racing, V8's fitted, the exchange rate changed and many were bought back into the UK, where did new owners get their engines from, poor old Bristol engined AC Greyhounds which were not fashionable or Bristol 405's. Then the historic racers, 406's escaped this because the engines were not eligible for historic racing, sadly the rest were and if you had a £100k racer £10 spent on a sad old Bristol to pinch its engine was a bargain. 405's seemed to be the first victims, then the 403's and eventually the 401's when people realised that these too could be modified to race or FNS specification. I wasted almost two weeks recently assembling a parts package for a potential buyer who wanted a engine for an early Frazer Nash only for him to drop his offer because he had been "offered later engines for less money", one at a plausible price, one that a very knowledgeable friend of mine said if it was available for that figure it would be scrap, a 100D at about a quarter of current market value.
The sad reality was that to build an authentic spec engine for the Frazer Nash in question a later engine would knock a lot off the value whereas in a Bristol it won't. The guy in question I suspect may actually have had a Werner Oswald clone but an FNS spec build on a correct series engine would have been a better bet.
As I said before its a funny old world, enjoy it!
Geoff.

Raymond,
ahhh i do not like the sounds of that ! maybe ill search for a suitable engine for the 405 ! wish me luck... !

Geoff,
250 for £450 ! god that must have been amazing !
i would have bought them all !
that a very interesting what you have wrote up, do you think i should search in the US for a 405 engine ?
if i cant get a 405 engine - what is the next best engine ?

thanks both
H

Hesketh,
There are original engines about and any 2 litre unit will fit a 405, the limitation to performance of the 85 series engines is reckoned to be the diameter of the crankshaft bearings but the FNS engines were based on these units so they can't be that bad. Truth is some of the engine castings were not that clever so for example cracked or porous blocks under the exhaust manifolds, this is by no means the end of the engines life, there are so many cost effective options to keep the car on the road. 85 heads can have seats re cut and enlarged to 100A spec, I am told 85 blocks can be modified to accept 100 series style cranks so a lot can still be done but at a cost.
Consider this, the late Brian May and I were discussing 85C vs 100A performance a good few years back and his view was on modern fuel and modern road conditions you wont notice the difference.
A 110 engine ex 406 would be a good upgrade if you can get one and if I am able to sell my 401's I will have at least one 85C engine, and an 85c block, crank, cam and 100B cam available, but only if the cars sell first.
Geoff.

Hesketh. If I might just add to what Geoff has said about cracked blocks. You might find someone who thinks their engine is good only for spares but I have had impressive results with cast iron stitching. I went to Stitchweld in Burton On Trent with a 1926 Dodge Brothers side valve block. They not only stitched up the water jacket (easy) but also managed to stitch across a cracked valve seat and machined it back to as good as new.

The cost was very reasonable and the repair was a long term success.

If you are pushed for cash you could always repair a simple frost crack with Belzona. It's amazing stuff!

Don't forget, however, that where ever you can see a crack in cast iron there WILL be another crack or two probably hidden and running above and below (parallel) to it .

Geoff,

you mean any 2L Bristol engine ? or any 2L of similar age in other British cars ?
i would be interested in one of your engines if i haven't found one by the time you have sold your Bristols, could i put an auto gear box on
these type engines ?
Only reason I ask is that I want my father to drive this Bristol and he finds auto gboxs a hell of alot easier !

Raymond,
Thanks so much for the company i have added them to my favourites as they may come extremely useful ! Your so right, there will always be one or 2 more hiding around the corner !

Best
H

BMW 6 cylinder engine from the 1970s Twin carb. 2.8 litres
One on Ebay that may be recoverable for about £500. Item 265406626599
These were canted over in the BMW but should work upright with a re-worked sump and oil pump pickup. I imagine there was an auto 'box for them.

Hesketh,
I do mean any 2 Litre Bristol engine and the 2.2 litre 406 unit, the changes in mountings on the engines and gearbox ( both Bristol ) came about when the overdrive units were introduce so if you want to fit a 406 engine and overdrive gearbox into say a 401 then the crossmember behind the gearbox has to be modified. If you want to fit a later overdrive conversion using a smaller overdrive it does not.
To date no one that I am aware of has succeeded in fitting an automatic gearbox to a Bristol 2 litre engine and indeed after Toby Silverton lost control of Bristol Cars the new owners found themselves at the wrong end of a very expensive legal action when they said they could but failed to deliver such a beast.
I don't recall any discussions on this but I wonder if any BMW 328's have ever been fitted with pre selector gearboxes if they have and you can find a gearbox it may be possible to fit such a unit to a Bristol plus assisted operation of the clutch, you could well be entering uncharted territory but it may be fun!
Geoff.

David C,

I wouldn't mind that BMW E9 engine in the 405 !
Sounds very interesting fitting that in the 405, but i'm just worried about fitment in the engine bay ? It may be a little to large i am thinking ?

Geoff Kingston,

Okay ill scrap the auto box on this one ! He can drive the others lol !
The thing is finding the 2L Bristol engine is quite hard and if i do see one they are very expensive !
Ive seen this 405 with a 2.5L Triumph TR6 TC engine and O/ drive gearbox
And it looks like it's a good fitment for the engine bay.

https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1373039

I may look for one of these and stick it in the 405 for now until I find a 2L engine thats in my price range.

Best,
H

evening all,

how hard would it be to install a 2.5L Triumph TR6 TC engine and O/ drive gearbox for now until i get a Bristol engine ?

like this 405 ?

https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1373039

thanks
H

It all depends on what you consider to be "difficult". It has been done before (as you know) so could be done again. I would expect there will be a certain amount of "fettling". Whether this involves welding in new engine mountings or not I don't know but you would probably need a different length prop shaft.

All I can say is that - unlike with the XK engine - there shouldn't need to be that much in the way of surgery.

One thing...stick with the TC option. The last thing you want is a 2.5pi with it's associated problems.

Not trying to be funny but might be worth ringing the gent who has his for sale and ask him.....

Raymond,

Indeed ive seen a few cars with Triumph engines, so it may be the easiest engine swap of the time. Oh yes never thought about the PShaft, there a few places around cheshire who make custom ones so hopefully i'll be covered.
Yes so true i'm trying to keep it as basic as possible so no modern car problems.

AndrewA,

Great shout buddy, i'll drop him a message now and i'll call him tomorrow, hopefully he can shed some light on it.

Thank you,

H

Despite what I said ... if you find an absolute bargain PI from a rotten saloon please don't limit your options on my say so. If you need it I have a set of genuine BL main dealer service sheets somewhere for a triumph PI system that are yours for the asking.

Raymond,

I think ill stick to the more easier option so i've read - i may be wrong still doing my R&D ! Ahh thank you so much, thats extremely kind of you sir !

Best
h

started to strip paint off bonnet hopefully get a few panels done this weekend !

I have an Austin Swallow which has aluminium body. When I did the body I took it all down to the bare metal and used an etching primer before applying any filler or paint.

The problem we have at the moment is dampness in the air. Even in a dry garage my hygrometer is reading high humidity. Ideally, it should read no more than 50% or there is a risk of micro blistering.

I didn't get the tape measure out but the BMW E9 engine idea came about when I was helping a friend restore a 3 litre CS. It looked to me as though it would be a reasonably easy fit, but I stand to be corrected.

David, you do realise how powerful that lump can be; especially in 3 litre guise?

I was able to keep up with a CSi up to about 90 MPH in my Triumph GT6 but then it just left me behind as it disappeared into the distance!

That's exactly why I thought it would be a good choice. In basic form it should be very dependable with plenty of torque. Pretty much the performance Bristol were chasing with the 160 engine intended for the 220 chassis. What a shame that never saw the light of day