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That Daimler V8 is a sweet sounding engine, wouldn't have anywhere near as much grunt as the Rover V8 but might be more in keeping with a 403.
As for Bristol's use of Chrysler engines, don't forget that Jensen also used them at the time, so did Facel Vega and Monteverdi. So Bristol were in good company. The fact is, adopting the Chrysler power train instead of developing their own would be a major contributing factor in Bristol's survival to this day. Kevin PS. Don't even think about going down the electric route! |
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Pope
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We had a visit years ago from an overseas visitor just out of the army who had the disconcerting habit of responding with "You are wrong", said with sufficient finality that it took us quite a while to figure out how to have a reasonable conversation. Claude |
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The number one distinguishing quality of the car is not where the parts come from (remember, it started as German war booty) but survival. Next it is the boy passion... the absurd idea that you can build your own car, not have it be seen as a kit car or Las Vegas car (like the Excaliber, for example), and keep churning them out decade after decade. Purity is not there. It would be heresy to put a chevy big block into a Rolls Royce because the factory would not consider such a thing. Tradition would be offended. Chopping the top off a Bristol is called a Special, not a travesty. The curious thing is because the fraternity (co-ed) of Bristol aficionados is so small, it really can define and redefine what is acceptable. A single individual can make a huge difference - look at S.L. Jones, Andrew Blow or Brian May, for example. If you, Hal, decided to not only convert your car to pure electric, but you did the engineering so it could become a kit, and then you put together a service that started converting every engineless Bristol, you would define the car and change the "reality". If a Bristol has soul, number one it is the experience first of walking up to it... it's visual, what it looks like (especially the 401-3 models which look like snow sculpted in a blizzard). Next, it is inside the cockpit as the driver. Again, it begins as a visual experience that becomes more pronounced as more cars are plastic moulded. It also is olfactory, the smells of real leather and wool. Then it is the driving experience, which is more about handling than sounds. The old Bristol 6 had a distinct sound, but the V8 sounds depend entirely on what silencers (mufflers) it has. Handling is a big part of the Bristol, as is the ride which varies widely depending on how old the rubber bits are in the car. Unless a Bristol is seriously butchered, that soul remains despite mechanical variations made. As a historian, I prefer to see variations that are bolt on, or that chop simple sheet metal, such as the bolt on transmission housing, because one day the cars may be worth returning to factory original. There are places like Bruce Pigeon's shop in Christchurch that make factory quality parts, and one of the nice things about Bristols is that most unique parts are relatively simple, since complexity requires too high volume. So, don't worry about killing the soul of your car by what powerplant you implant, or even chopping the top off, provided you do it very well. I owned a 405 Drophead that required a complete restoration (No. 4510... brilliantly finished by the factory for the fellow who bought it from me). When we looked at the work done by Abbot in making it a drophead, the restoration guy said the Bristol welder belonged in the welder's hall of fame, but the Abbot guys must have been blacksmiths for the crude way they chopped off the top. In his view, the 405s were built as standard and then converted afterwards. Not sure if this is true, but if so, it certainly gives a green light to aftermarket jobs. Cheers Claude |
Claude,
Hal lives quite near me so if he wants to go electric I will help him. I will even work on a kit so others can follow. All we need is investors -- any offers ? Or is reality the real option i.e making a 402 special with a diseasel or petrol engine strong enough to do it justice. As extra space would be created making a 402 by loosing the rear seats perhaps room for LPG ? Sorry about being so negative about electric but the technology , cost , money , and even range when complete seem monumental hurdles. Nevertheless , any investors ?? Greg |
Speaking as very new owner of a full nut and bolt restored Bristol 411 (v6), I probably do not have the experience to comment on what makes a Bristol a Bristol. However, I would like to contribute to this discussion to state what an excellent job Bristol did on this car, and for me - asking them to rebuild a 411 from scratch was an inspired plan. My brother has now asked Bristol to do the same to a Bristol 603 and I am eagerly awaiting a drive in that!
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Any chance of some BKZ411 pictures -- I am thinking of doing similar !
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New 403 owner
No problem - my car was reviewed in Octane, see
http://www.classicandperformancecar....uy_it_new.html |
Electric wise, lead acid is a dead duck, Toyota make a grotesque hybrid thing which I notice tend to be driven appallingly, and there's an issue with Toyota brakes, perhaps smashed examples are piling up in scrap yards waiting for their modern technology batteries to be harvested, shame if they go to waste as their manufacture will have caused vast pollution.
Obviously how the car will be used needs consideration before going 'leccy, for delivering bottles of milk in the early hours it's ideal. How about towing a trailer mounted diesel generator for electric power, run on the agricultural red stuff, this could even be legal in a loophole kind of way, charge exempt congestion zone cruising! I wouldn't be keen myself for a rover V8, It's what powers my regular car and I find them a rough old lump of monkey metal, but still likeable if that makes sense, more suited to a tractor than a lightweight car, and that famed 'V8 rumble' is not a good thing. There are far nicer engines out there, Big Lexus Merc copy has an ohc 4l V8, come to think of it, might be worth looking at what powers Mercs. BMW engines, from what I've seen, do tend to be sprawled across their bays, but would be the one to go for if at all feasible, though I do think unlikely. As for diesel, I heard or read some years ago that a diesel powered car is like being gay, more acceptable than it used to be, but still wrong. |
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But apart from that, the economic viability, poor range and lack of re-fuelling facilities in the UK, it just wouldn't be proper! Quote:
is that a typo? |
New 403 owner
The theory that the change from Bristol engines to Chrysler engines
undermines the engineering does not take into account the engineering skills of Chrysler. Having owned a number of cars, including Chryslers, I can say that not all American V-8s are the same. The emissions standards of the 70's killed Ford and GM's v8s. Chryslers were not in the same problem of losing all power. As far as putting something into a 403, there was an Arnolt Bristol that had a Triumph 6 and gear box installed without cutting up the frame. I believe it was a TR6 engine and box. Kevin |
New 403 owner
The (v6) was a typo - should have been "series 6", the first/only one ever
made. |
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Before this modern 411, what car did you drive. What i mean is how does the driving experience compare to lets say a higher end BMW or Mercedes ? |
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New 403 owner
Gourgeous - but those switches and air ducts!
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New 403 owner
Where, please.
Sean |
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New 403 owner
I did indeed!
Surely aircraft-type click-clack switches would be better - like the 1920's domestic light switches? More functional and pleasing to the eye. The air vents remind me of an Austin Allegro. Or I suppose any other 1970's car. Not my period, and I think the worst period in history for design. The shape of the 411 however is still very distinctive and pleasing, and on this car, gone are the horrible 1970's wheels etc.. I guess Bristol were lagging 10 years behind in design at the time, maybe later went wrong in the 1980's? I'm not really familiar with the later models, but wasn't keen on them when contempory. Rgds, Andy. |
New 403 owner
My father once owned a 411 and he allowed me the priviledge of driving it
when I was 17 yrs old. A most memorable journey - not least because the alternator was broken and we got stuck half way between Winchester and Southampton. Recently I had a brief love affair with an old XJS HE 5.3 but that caused me no end of trouble, breaking down 13 times in one year, before being converted to the security of Mercedes, and have driven an A Class, and later a B class. My one concern with owning a classic was reliability, but as this car comes with a new car warranty that doesn't appear to be an issue. I will let you know as I get more accustomed to driving it - but my experience to date has been over whelmingly good. |
Now I wonder what Bristol did with all the old 411 bits, such as V8, box, suspension, axles, interior, brakes & anything else they upgraded.
Sounds like a kit of parts for your 403 Hal! The basic chassis has barely changed since 1940s, so most later stuff should be able to be retro-fitted. Rob |
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If yes, then Chrysler V8 & torqueflite box, would certainly make a more "authentic" addition, without hopefully breaking the bank. Hal |
Anything is possible with time , money and skills. It just depends on your resources of all three.
I would have to keep it simple as I am very limited on all three so would keep it as simple as possible. Get a good local old school mechanic to have a good look around it and get his thoughts as non of us can see it. Greg |
Anyone ken what changes were made to 406 to accept V8 for 407 & whether any V8 ever fitted to pre-404 body-style?
Might Toby be persuaded to re-build a prototype, even if only to rolling body state, to identify kit-of-parts (probably mix of new mounts, cables, linkages, pedals, expendable susp/brake/axle bits etc. & similar basic s/h running-gear bits from upgrades) required for home/trade conversions that Bristol could sell or even use for factory upgrades of 401 to Blenheim spec! I think we can exclude fitting Fighter T V10! Anyone ken comparative drag co-efficients from 400-412 & Blenheim? Rob |
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New 403 owner
Hi I seem to have gone a little further down the same road as you,nice car no
engine and not really interested in expensive engine options just drivability and reliability.If you want a chat phone work on 01617639714 Â. |
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That was a detailed response. I’m afraid that i can’t really comment upon the singularity of various individuals, since i really don’t know what they did etc that made them so singular. I found your comments about the fraternity of Bristol owners to be very illuminating. Especially your observation (hypothesis maybe ?) that there is more freedom in Bristol ownership about making changes / tailoring the car to one’s own needs, and those choices then being embraced or at least not shunned. My own personal preference is to see if a BMW engine & box can be fitted into the car, because of BMW having a strong DNA link to the Bristol 403. Cheers Hal |
Hal,
A 405 in Sweden is also having / had a BMW engine replacement and much more. Very interesting project and will probably be a superb car if the rest of his work is anything to go by. Dan S-born Refining Maybe he can give you some tips. Greg |
New 403 owner
There has been a lot said about Bristol's and how they fit into the modern
world, but the position was a much clearer years ago and its status was understood by people who knew about cars. I bought my 401 some 48 years ago when it was 10 years old, just after it had been to the works and had some updating done. The reason I bought it was that there was nothing else which came near it for quality or performance, I was looking for the best and the Bristol was. This was a simple decision albeit an expensive one at the time as the new cost was almost 3.500 GBP in 1952 and I paid a third of this in 1962 which for someone who had just finished as a De Havilland Apprentice was a lot of money and one could buy a house for that. I have never regretted buying the car, in fact it has turned out to be one of the best things that I have done, in as much as it has given me endless pleasure made me friends from all over the world, has been welcomed into many countries, but above all it is established as one of the family. I hope that I will still be able to drive it for many years, as I joined the new Bristol Owners Club in 1964 when it was part of the BMW Club, I was the youngest member, alas I am the only original member left now, but it is good to see the club so well established. My regards, Bellerophon |
I think Bellerophon probably has a unique perspective on Bristol cars and even owned my 408 back in the 60's but chose to keep the 401 -- hmmm !
Having seen and been in the Bellerophon 401, it is remarkable that a car more than a half century old can still go down the road as good as some modern cars. Bristol took a superb bit of engineering and design from BMW and made it better and made it their own. Given the same circumstances today, I wonder what 10 year old car someone like a young Bellerophon would buy ? Would it be a Bristol ? In my mind it is a much harder choice as I don't believe that any model stands out as much as the Bristols in that era and I can't imagine anything being so usable in 60 years time. So, what would a young Bellerophon buy today ? Greg |
[quote=GREG;2459]Hal,
A 405 in Sweden is also having / had a BMW engine replacement and much more. Very interesting project and will probably be a superb car if the rest of his work is anything to go by. Dan S-born Refining Hal, Dansborn said that he could complete the car in either convertible or as you like for around 35 k. Even for a Frankenstein special it seems about half price and a very usable car at the end! I think if you just like the Bristol for it's looks it is very tempting. Greg |
New 403 owner
"This was a simple decision albeit an expensive one at the time as
the new cost was almost 3.500 GBP in 1952..." The is the same reported price as most Frazer Nash models in 1952! A few weeks ago I looked up various inflation tables and this was one: http://www.measuringworth.com/ukcompare/ Also there are similar tables to show the pound-dollar values over time. It was more interesting than doing my taxes! Bob |
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Thanks for that info. I've sent him an email, so will keep you informed. Quote:
Also how did the other members of the BMW club view the Bristol owners ? as cousins or interlopers ? thanks. |
New 403 owner
The question how did the members of the BMW Car Club view the Bristol
owners. Well I entered the first Bristol concourse held with the BMW club at Esher in 1965, The event was split into two sections, the Bristol half was run as one class for all models of Bristol cars, being just a first second and third ect. I had fitted my car with Cintura radial tyres (one of the first in the country) the judges did not like this as it was not in the original specification so marked my wheels and tyres down. Dispite this the car came fourth overall the winner being Lt.Col. G.T.E.Grey with his 406Z ,of interest was L.J.K.Setright's 405 which came seventh. We ventured onto the BMW section and were very taken with the very good looking type 507 sports car with the V8 engine however this was only LHD, the general feeling among the people present was that it was great to have an enlarged club with much more of interest to look at. (no them and us at all) In those days the Bristol News appeared in the BMW magazine and if you look on the CD the club issued covering the magazines you can see how the two makes were run side by side. Hope this gives you some idea of how it was at the start, it was only when the number of Bristol owners grew that a parting of the ways took place. Bristol Cars always had a special place being manufactured by the Great Bristol Aeroplane Company similar to Rolls Royce it stood for something which I do not think can be quite matched now. My regards, Bellerophon |
The Swedish 405 with BMW engine is interesting, I've no idea of exact measurements but I suspect a modern BMW 6 may need some vaseline to squeeze into a Brizzy 6 engine bay. Would be interesting to visit a scrapyard with a measuring tape in hand.
I think maybe the path of engine change can be done two ways, easy / simple, (which may become difficult) or complicated / involved (which will become near impossible). For me, easy would be finding an engine gearbox combo which can fit in the available space, with the minimum of adaption / mutilation of the car, with self contained ignition in the form of distributor and a carburetor. Difficult would be using any engine produced in the last decade or so, which will invariably involve a whole world of pain in the form of electronic control, there are various ways of doing this, but all are complex and mean a lot more to go wrong. I'll have to begin carrying a tape measure at all times, and see if I come across something tasty, the Japanese have made some quite nice motors, and If there's one with the ideal dimensions I suppose it would have to be considered, the rotary Mazda Wankel thing would take up little space, equally different would be the Subaru boxer. At the moment a large amount of cars have been taken off the road via the scrappage scheme, there have been many stories of excellent cars, some low mileage one owner, condemned in the belief that a nasty Korean thing is better. There are yards such as U-Pull-It with cars lined up for stripping before crushing. I'm thinking it could be tempting to put my cars original engine / box to one side, and possibly have something more powerful that I won't be scared to thrash. |
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If this is the case, then perhaps the case for judicious use of BMW parts is stronger, and doesn't dilute the character / heritage etc. Regards Hal |
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