New 403 owner

[Hal]

Hello All,

I thought i would introduce myself, as a new Bristol owner.

I very recently bought a Bristol 403 (without engine and gearbox).

I have to be honest and admit that i bought the car on a whim, knowing nothing about the model, and very little about Bristol cars.

Now that i've done the deed, i find myself out of my depth and experience.

I'm hoping to restore the car myself, with some help from a mechanic who has restored VW bugs. However, i have zero technical skills, but hope to learn as i go along the required skills.

Everyone tells me that i'm mad to even consider this, as early Bristol's require major skills, the aluminium bodywork is difficult to work with and weld and would be too difficult a project in general for a complete novice.

Do the board members think that i'm being not very realistic considering the amount of work the car needs ?

[Hydroglen]

You don't say how much work the car needs. If it is very nice and missing
the engine and gearbox, it may boil down to spending a fair amount to buy
a Bristol engine or converting to another engine.
Check the prices of a decent 403 and then do the math to see how much it
would cost to make yours comparable.
That will not require mechanical skills and will yield interesting
information. Knowledge is power!!
Cheers
Dorien

[Hal]

Hello Dorien,

Thanks for your reply. The condition looks pretty poor to my untrained eye, as per the photos i enclosed.

To make mine decent, the maths does'nt seem to add up.

The big question from a cost standpoint seems to be the engine and gearbox.

Are there alternatives to using a Bristol engine and gearbox ?

Is there something from a recent BMW that would be readily available that i could use ? I say this based upon what i've read about the 403 being based upon a BMW design.

Any thoughts / pointers ?

thanks,
Hal

[RGSchmitt]

Hal -

I can't recall whether it was this forum or the BOC one that had some
discussion of other engines suggested/fitted to a Bristol. I do
recall one owner was well into a project to put in a Volvo engine, a
4 cyl I think. A Bristol sold recently in the US had a Ford Falcon
engine installed. Unless you are very lucky, obtaining a 6 cyl
Bristol engine and transmission is likely more expensive than your
original purchase!

Bob

PS My car was in MUCH worse condition when I found it, so don't give up.

[Hydroglen]

Hi Hal,
I have not seen any pictures of your car. A modern BMW has absolutely no
connection with the original BMW based 6 cyl engine.
Others on this chat page may have done a conversion and can advise you more
accurately. It may also boil down to what is available in your area at a
cost that you are "happy" with. Remember that in an engine / gearbox
conversion, many of the original intruments such as speedo and tach will not
work and will have to be adjusted.
A body shop can give you a general cost on their work based on pictures. If
they are shy and moan that they need to "see" the car, ask them the cost of
painting the car you are driving and tell them you are wanting a color
change. Door jams and other detailing add $$. It will at least put you in
the general price area and if your Bristol is rougher than the car you are
driving...well the price just got higher!!
Your VW man should be able to, via connections in the trade, give you an
approximate engine installation charge / cost.
Presumably you will need brakes + exhaust possibly interior work. Fiddly
things like wiper motor and lights. They all add up in the red math section
of your ledger lol.
And of course the price you paid for the car, and do you REALLY want a
Bristol 403 in the first place?
Depending on what part of the world you are, in will make a BIG difference
to the cost. In Europe you will pay double what you may pay in North
America. There was a 401 or 403 for sale last year in the USA with a Ford
6cyl engine. They virtually give these away, so a relatively inexpensive
transplant. It was Hyman motors that had the car. He usually has something
for sale on EBay in the collector car section, so you could try and contact
him and see if the car sold and for how much. It will help you with your
math.
Back on Wednesday....looking forwards to exciting news.
Good luck
Dorien

[Hal]

Bob,

Thanks for your information.

Its beginning to dawn on me that there was a good reason why the car i bought did not come with an engine and gearbox, and the cost of buying these items is expensive.

Thats why i'm considering using an alternative setup that would be more readily available and a lot cheaper.

I'll try and not give up, but everyone keeps on telling me that its a hard road ahead (sigh).

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted by RGSchmitt

Hal -
I can't recall whether it was this forum or the BOC one that had some
discussion of other engines suggested/fitted to a Bristol. I do
recall one owner was well into a project to put in a Volvo engine, a
4 cyl I think.

Bob, it was on here (Clyde aka 406Special). He talks about his car (Bristol 406) in these threads.

http://www.bristolcars.info/forums/6...istol-6-a.html

http://www.bristolcars.info/forums/6...ice-parts.html

PS My car was in MUCH worse condition when I found it, so don't give up.

Yes, but your fully restored Frazer Nash is probably worth ten times what a 403 would be worth!

Originally Posted by dave dale

Hal,
If you have got plenty of money, there is another alternative. Recently there are new heads being made for the Bristol 2-litre block.

Slight problem Dave - he doesn't have a Bristol 2-litre block to put the new heads on

Hal, just in case you are wondering why some people might say they haven't seen the photos you uploaded with your first post, it's because they are communicating with the forum by email.

I wish you luck with the car, but I really think it would be far cheaper in the long run to buy one that has already been done, or buy one that at the very least has it's original power train.

[GREG]

HAL - Put your email question on BEEF so you get more ideas / answers -Greg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hal
Greg,

I really really like the 402 idea, especially since its a very glamerous looking design.

But is it possible and how and who could do the cabriolet conversion.

Hal
Yep , it's possible and has been done once or twice. Lots of coach trimmers could do it. It is relatively simple due to the strong chassis. Go and look at a 402 to see where to chop etc

Best if you look on the chassis list on the BOC and contact someone that has done it for advise.

Even with an imposter engine an imposter 402 would sell for good money.

I remember when I saw a 405 in about the same condition as yours. There was a spares or repair SAAB 900 convertible for sale with a good electric hood for Ł300 near my house -- that set my mind wondering !.

Maybe someone on the BEEF site has done it.

Greg

[GREG]

It really is a massive money pit of a job. Join the B.O.C if you haven't already and talk to some owners. I don't want to rain on your parade but it aint no Beetle.

Best of luck

Greg

[Des]

From the pics that car looks in quite good order, but you need to take a close look underneath so you know what you're taking on, as long as you have somewhere to work on it comfortably, and have the time, then it needn't be terribly expensive, depends on what you want from the car. If you want to make it look factory fresh, you'll sink many tens of thousands, and be left with a car you daren't use, just another old car that hides under a dustsheet. In your pics I see a car that oozes character, you could even call it shabby chic or patina, it's unique, and it looks 'right'. I'd 'roll' it as is.
Have a good old prod, under that shapely panelwork is a steel support structure, look closely behind bottom rear of front wheelarches, under the alluminium splash panels are outriggers to support the bulkhead via square uprights, going rearward more outriggers to meet door pillars, take a good look at the door pillars also, especially the lower part, then there's strangely engineered sills, these are easy enough to make, then have a good look inside the rear arches, look under car below rear door pillar, shorter outrigger here, and the underside of the chassis in this area is where I've found them to go first. Lots of alluminium covers hide these areas, heavy corrosion / bulging on alluminium often means very rusty steel behind. Look inside the car, behind trim, at the steel tubing that makes up the roll cage like frame, this needs to be in good order. I've just listed areas I've noticed needing work on a few cars. A car of 50 plus years can have problems anywhere.
If you're happy you can handle what you find go for it, you will be learning / gaining skills.
There probably aren't many RWD engines that won't fit, the transmission tunnel is screwed down, no big deal to modify / make, biggest problem may be clutch actuation, exhaust or inlet clearing steering column, but the pair of nice flat chassis legs for engine mounts are a bonus. Maybe best to look for an upright engine, with carbs keeps it simple, Fiat / Alfa twin cam? they are quite nice, the red Volvo four pot is a good reliable lump, (a lot of jap stuff suitable but would just feel wrong) Should be easy to source something more powerful than the Bristol engine yet cheaper than buying a head gasket for the Bristol lump.

[GREG]

Hal

We are having a meeting at the Bridge Inn at Walshford near Wetherby on the 10 /11th of April. There will be a talk on Bristols on the 10th and a run on the 11th around the Dales. I think it could be good for you to see the cars and meet a few blokes that have restored them.

Let me know if you want more info

Greg

[Hal]

Des,

I agree that it does have a quite nice patina. But i don't think that i'll be able to keep it as is, because of all the aluminium thats reacted and turned into a white powdery substance.

I was thinking that i should strip the car, remove it from the chassis, and then have the body soda blasted, and the chassis shotblasted.

This should allow me to see what corrosion there is on the chassis and steel parts on the body and come up with a plan to have repaired.

The alfa sounds nice. What about BMW's to keep lets say a genetic link to the design, distant cousins let say, but cousins non the less.

If i ever get to start and finish this project, i think that its a car i would like to use on a regular basis, in the sun and in the rain.

Cheers
Hal

[Max Tone]

Hi Hal,

You might like to consider the 3-litre Humber Super Snipe/Imperial engine as it has several historical connections with Bristol.

It was developed, maybe jointly, with Armstrong-Siddeley Motors as a development of their Sapphire 3.4 hemi-headed straight six.

Several racing versions of the 346 engine were built c. 1953, producing c. 190bhp with iron head & twin Zenith single-choke sidedraughts or c. 230bhp with alloy head & triple Webers.

Two engines went to Allard for Tommy Sopwith's "Sphinx Allard" and two were allocated to Frazer-Nash for 550F Le Mans Prototype. AC were also approached, but declined.

These engines were developed for the AS Hunter sports car project that might have been an XK-beater, but was shelved.

When Hawker-Siddeley & Bristol Aero bit merged to become Bristol-Siddeley at about same time that car division were looking to cease production of BMW derived engine in favour of more powerful off-the-shelf lump, they found themselves with an alternative engine in-house.

It is believed that Bristol took 4 Star Sapphire 4-litre engines + auto boxes for fitment in prototype 407s, of which one is known to survive. One engine was also fitted in "Project 240 mule", but proved far too heavy & messed up the handling. I'm pretty sure this car was the "Bullet" on which the Blenheim Speedster was based, as it is known to have been used to test various engines, as well as being light enough to have handling affected by big lump (& Star engine was extra heavy)

Its descendant Humber engine was much lighter, with shorter, lower block & thinner castings, but just as tuneable. There's a racing Sapphire 346 in Northern Ireland & no apparent problems with unleaded without hardened valve-seat inserts in iron head.

There are rusting Humber hulks all over the place, in danger of being weighed in for scrap...........................

Good luck,

Rob

[Hal]

Originally Posted by Max Tone

,

You might like to consider the 3-
There are rusting Humber hulks all over the place, in danger of being weighed in for scrap...........................

Rob

Hi Rob,

That sounds like an interesting idea.

From a purist's point of view, would this swap be considered "accurate" and in keeping, and also how would it effect the value ?

Is the Humber lump a reliable unit ?

Thanks
Hal

[Claude]

Hal. Bristol owners have tried all sorts of transplants, and from my viewpoint, one of these days a Bristol owners contingent should approach Tony Silverton at Bristol Cars and ask that the factory come up with an "approved" solution. Unlikely that it would be remanufacture of the old Bristol 6 and transmission, because the cost would be over the top even if they had it made in China.

More likely something along the lines of what they did with Chrysler, where they are phenomenally lucky to have chosen a power plant that was in production in 1960, and remains, in almost the same form today in 2010. However, it probably needs to be a lighter engine, and I envision Bristol developing a retrofit kit with the ideal making it a bolt-in solution using a common engine with similar performance characteristics to the original. Probably Japanese if they want practical, but could be German if they want tradition.

Having said that, there may be another direction for you to go. Electric. Check out the electric car conversion business, and you find it is not all microcars. Ford and Chevy made pickup trucks that ran about 100 miles on a charge. The motor part is easy and small - it will fit into the drive bay, and typically uses a manual transmission. The battery part is the weight and cost, but a lot of this depends on range. Once installed, maintenance is far less.

There are companies that will do it all for you, if you have the checkbook. See Electric Blue Motors Conversion Services for an example, quoting about $13,000 for a car. Do it yourself seems to be around $5,000 for parts.

A few years ago, this would have been considered an off the wall idea, but times are changing thanks to folks like Tesla. The fact is that most classics are not driven over 100 miles at a time, and if you do take the long outing, a gasoline powered battery charger can extend range. The Bristol can store batteries in the two side wings as well as behind the rear seat where the gas tank goes without taking space from the passenger compartment or boot/trunk. With the side wings you could probably design a quick remove kit, so you could keep a batch of fresh batteries in the garage and swap them out in seconds.

And, if you are looking for cheap batteries, a friend of mine put a wind generator in his home on a micro-island in Rhode Island, and he bought a room full of used batteries from a nuclear power plant. Apparently they are required to replace them on a schedule, even though they have plenty of life left in them.

Just another idea to throw into the mix.

Cheers
Claude

[GREG]

quote

Having said that, there may be another direction for you to go. Electric. Check out the electric car conversion business, and you find it is not all microcars. Ford and Chevy made pickup trucks that ran about 100 miles on a charge. The motor part is easy and small - it will fit into the drive bay, and typically uses a manual transmission. The battery part is the weight and cost, but a lot of this depends on range. Once installed, maintenance is far less.

----------------------------------------------------------------

They are not all locked up !!

[Hal]

Originally Posted by Claude

Hal. Bristol owners have tried all sorts of transplants, and from my viewpoint, one of these days a Bristol owners contingent should approach Tony Silverton at Bristol Cars and ask that the factory come up with an "approved" solution. Unlikely that it would be remanufacture of the old Bristol 6 and transmission, because the cost would be over the top even if they had it made in China.

More likely something along the lines of what they did with Chrysler, where they are phenomenally lucky to have chosen a power plant that was in production in 1960, and remains, in almost the same form today in 2010. However, it probably needs to be a lighter engine, and I envision Bristol developing a retrofit kit with the ideal making it a bolt-in solution using a common engine with similar performance characteristics to the original. Probably Japanese if they want practical, but could be German if they want tradition.

Having said that, there may be another direction for you to go. Electric. Check out the electric car conversion business, and you find it is not all microcars. Ford and Chevy made pickup trucks that ran about 100 miles on a charge. The motor part is easy and small - it will fit into the drive bay, and typically uses a manual transmission. The battery part is the weight and cost, but a lot of this depends on range. Once installed, maintenance is far less.

There are companies that will do it all for you, if you have the checkbook. See Electric Blue Motors Conversion Services for an example, quoting about $13,000 for a car. Do it yourself seems to be around $5,000 for parts.

A few years ago, this would have been considered an off the wall idea, but times are changing thanks to folks like Tesla. The fact is that most classics are not driven over 100 miles at a time, and if you do take the long outing, a gasoline powered battery charger can extend range. The Bristol can store batteries in the two side wings as well as behind the rear seat where the gas tank goes without taking space from the passenger compartment or boot/trunk. With the side wings you could probably design a quick remove kit, so you could keep a batch of fresh batteries in the garage and swap them out in seconds.

And, if you are looking for cheap batteries, a friend of mine put a wind generator in his home on a micro-island in Rhode Island, and he bought a room full of used batteries from a nuclear power plant. Apparently they are required to replace them on a schedule, even though they have plenty of life left in them.

Just another idea to throw into the mix.

Cheers
Claude

Hi Claude,

Yes I guess it would help if there was a sanctioned transplant, at a sensible cost.

However, if Bristol gave up making their own engines, and bought in engines from Chrysler, does that mean that the engine and gearbox are not fundamental to the spirit or soul of a Bristol.

If so, are alternatives a real problem then ?

I know of a chap in the USA, in the deep south, who converted his pickup to electric.

The problem he found was that using lead acid batteries added too much weight, and the lighter batteries were much to expensive.

Using electric would simplify in many respects, and turn it into a real retro modern type of motor.

Its worth keeping in mind, and thanks for the input and ideas.

Cheers
Hal

[Claude]

Originally Posted by Hal

However, if Bristol gave up making their own engines, and bought in engines from Chrysler, does that mean that the engine and gearbox are not fundamental to the spirit or soul of a Bristol.
Hal

Rules about classic cars do not apply to Bristol. There are not enough of them to create a "typical" resale market, and a great deal of their fate depends on one man... previously Tony and now Toby. Tony caused the marque to fall into oblivion, keeping it going but putting it so far off the radar screen as to weaken the used market to the point where many restorables were scrapped or lie in open fields. Toby has revitalized it, so there is new interest, and I see prices higher.

The soul of a Bristol is not purest. It is an engineers car (until the recent Fighter which is sex on wheels) and a historian's car in the same vein as the Morgan, only more elegant. So when Chrysler offered their automatic transmission, and popped a motor on it to demonstrate its use, Bristol shifted to what they saw as an excellent motor. Once in, they have stayed with it because changing is complicated, and their engine has remained stable even as the company changed ownership and almost went out of business a few times.

Bristol itself does not venerate its cars. It is happy to take a 410 in and offer to refit it with the latest engine, brakes, electric devices and modern sunroof. But because it does this as the factory, it creates an official sanction that goes down in history as proper. It makes it part of the"soul" of the car.

Sometimes it takes a newcomer, and Hal, you may be the man. Not sure where you live, but I would suggest you take a flight or drive over to the showroom and have a serious chat with Toby. I would estimate there are at least a hundred engineless 400-6 cars out there that could reasonably be restored if an engine/transmission combo could affordably be secured from a donor car. The business case for Bristol is the Morgan business case. As Tony Crook said, Morgan is in the parts business. They build their cars to create market demand for parts. Put a hundred Bristols back on the road with engines and the demand for restoration parts will skyrocket.

I think it is worthwhile asking Toby to look at electric. Doing a review of the internet shows companies are now coming out with reasonable sized cars targeting 100 to 250 miles driving range. Batteries will improve. We may also see fuel cell charging systems that use gasoline better (because they run at a single rpm). From a restoration perspective, electric is easy because it fits in the engine bay and allows weight to be strategically distributed for best handling. If he can do the conversion at the current market price, they would charge about 10,000 UKP... and as all would be the same, that price could come down after the first few. Not unprecedented. When gas became a problem, Bristol sold LPG cars. And, on my last visit to the repair shop, they did have an electric micro car parked in a corner.

But if not electric, ask Toby to pick a common engine that was put in cars whose bodies broke while the engine soldiered on. It is too bad, of course that the Chrysler small-block 8 does not easily fit, but I wonder what would be involved in a factory refit kit. It may require a tin kit for the engine bay, and probably would require a stronger differential. After all they did it with the Bullet, which looks like it was a Bristol-6 chassis they modified as an engine test bed.

What do you say, Hal? Pop on over and have a chat.

Claude

[Hal]

Originally Posted by Claude

Rules about classic cars do not apply to Bristol.
Claude

Claude,

As a newbie, I found your observations illuminating, especially about Bristol cars not “venerating” their cars, and that the soul of a Bristol is that of an engineer.

These comments seem to make sense to me. Especially, since as you point out that they will happily modernise one of their earlier models to full modern spec. And I accept that a retrofit done by the factory, would be perceived as proper.

But if we start looking at electric, LPG etc, whether factory approved or not, surely it begs the question again of what is it that makes a Bristol. Is it the power plant? the chassis, the design or some other mechanical or design aesthetic that if we see it, we can recognise and identify as uniquely Bristol.

As a new owner, in my “ignorance” I would say that its understated cars, with good British engineering values, and cars for grown ups that are practical, and that on the whole form follows function.

But if “Britishness” is a core value, then how can they use the Chrysler bits without sacrificing this value ?

These are more questions than statements, as the answers I believe will help clarify / pin down what is lets say acceptable and what isn’t.

If it’s just engineering, then surely any and all superior engineering could be added ?

I suspect that my lack of knowledge of Bristol cars and oily bits in general would preclude me from being the one that could talk to Bristol cars. I’d probably make some daft suggestion that would get me shot or make me persona non grata, lol.

Hal

[Claude]

Originally Posted by Hal

Claude,

As a newbie, I found your observations illuminating, especially about Bristol cars not “venerating” their cars, and that the soul of a Bristol is that of an engineer.

These comments seem to make sense to me. Especially, since as you point out that they will happily modernise one of their earlier models to full modern spec. And I accept that a retrofit done by the factory, would be perceived as proper.

But if we start looking at electric, LPG etc, whether factory approved or not, surely it begs the question again of what is it that makes a Bristol. Is it the power plant? the chassis, the design or some other mechanical or design aesthetic that if we see it, we can recognise and identify as uniquely Bristol.

As a new owner, in my “ignorance” I would say that its understated cars, with good British engineering values, and cars for grown ups that are practical, and that on the whole form follows function.

But if “Britishness” is a core value, then how can they use the Chrysler bits without sacrificing this value ?

These are more questions than statements, as the answers I believe will help clarify / pin down what is lets say acceptable and what isn’t.

If it’s just engineering, then surely any and all superior engineering could be added ?

I suspect that my lack of knowledge of Bristol cars and oily bits in general would preclude me from being the one that could talk to Bristol cars. I’d probably make some daft suggestion that would get me shot or make me persona non grata, lol.

Hal

I would say the core value of a Bristol is not Britishness, but singularity, which perhaps may be a British quality. At first it was a way to keep talented aeroplane guys in work. It then became the life purpose for Tony Crook who was perhaps one of the most singular men in the industry, in the mould of Henry Ford in some ways (but not in others). Now Toby Silverton has taken it on, preserving the singularity while injecting new life into the beast.

The number one distinguishing quality of the car is not where the parts come from (remember, it started as German war booty) but survival.

Next it is the boy passion... the absurd idea that you can build your own car, not have it be seen as a kit car or Las Vegas car (like the Excaliber, for example), and keep churning them out decade after decade.

Purity is not there. It would be heresy to put a chevy big block into a Rolls Royce because the factory would not consider such a thing. Tradition would be offended. Chopping the top off a Bristol is called a Special, not a travesty.

The curious thing is because the fraternity (co-ed) of Bristol aficionados is so small, it really can define and redefine what is acceptable. A single individual can make a huge difference - look at S.L. Jones, Andrew Blow or Brian May, for example. If you, Hal, decided to not only convert your car to pure electric, but you did the engineering so it could become a kit, and then you put together a service that started converting every engineless Bristol, you would define the car and change the "reality".

If a Bristol has soul, number one it is the experience first of walking up to it... it's visual, what it looks like (especially the 401-3 models which look like snow sculpted in a blizzard). Next, it is inside the cockpit as the driver. Again, it begins as a visual experience that becomes more pronounced as more cars are plastic moulded. It also is olfactory, the smells of real leather and wool. Then it is the driving experience, which is more about handling than sounds. The old Bristol 6 had a distinct sound, but the V8 sounds depend entirely on what silencers (mufflers) it has. Handling is a big part of the Bristol, as is the ride which varies widely depending on how old the rubber bits are in the car.

Unless a Bristol is seriously butchered, that soul remains despite mechanical variations made. As a historian, I prefer to see variations that are bolt on, or that chop simple sheet metal, such as the bolt on transmission housing, because one day the cars may be worth returning to factory original. There are places like Bruce Pigeon's shop in Christchurch that make factory quality parts, and one of the nice things about Bristols is that most unique parts are relatively simple, since complexity requires too high volume.

So, don't worry about killing the soul of your car by what powerplant you implant, or even chopping the top off, provided you do it very well. I owned a 405 Drophead that required a complete restoration (No. 4510... brilliantly finished by the factory for the fellow who bought it from me). When we looked at the work done by Abbot in making it a drophead, the restoration guy said the Bristol welder belonged in the welder's hall of fame, but the Abbot guys must have been blacksmiths for the crude way they chopped off the top. In his view, the 405s were built as standard and then converted afterwards. Not sure if this is true, but if so, it certainly gives a green light to aftermarket jobs.

Cheers
Claude