408 Engine Question

[andyreid3]

Hi all, I just happily purchased a 1964 Bristol 408. I had been looking for a LHD car for a number of years but when this RHD car came up from a friend I jumped and bought it. It has had its 313 V* replaced with a newly rebuilt 340 six pack engine.

My question is does the replacement of the original 313 with the Chrysler 340 six pack engine effect the value in a positive or negative way. Being new to Bristol ownership I am still figuring all this out.

I live in the US hence originally wanting a LHD car.

Any opinions would be appreciated.
Thanks
Andy

[408Berlin]

Hi I also own a 1964 408. It will definately effect the value of your car. The more original your car is the better it is. A wrong motor is a kind of "no go" to my mind. I would take any effort to bring the car back to its original condition.
Best Hans
Berlin Germany

[412usa]

Hi Andy, perhaps in the long run there may be some affect in having a different engine but Bristols are so rare, and unfortunately so unknown, in the US that I doubt there will any current impact. Condition is much more important as the cost of a restoration to original standards generally costs more than could be recouped by sale. I'd love to be able to update the Registry with your car details. I can be contacted at mcgou@msn.com and would be happy to help you with any issues you have with the car, if I can. Peter McGough BOC NA Registrar.

[Kevin H]

Hi Andy,

A classic car with a non original engine is always going to be worth less. That said there are a few Bristols around with non original engines and the factory have been known to "upgrade" and modify cars.

However a 340 six pack seems more appropriate for a street race car than a Bristol 408.

Do you know whether your car is a 408 or a 408 Mk2?

If I were you I would source an original A series 313 or 318 Plymouth engine (NOT LA series) and at least have that available if you sell the car down the track. Being in the US that should be relatively easy.

Did they change the transmission also?
a 408 would have a Torqueflite A-466 and the 408 Mk2 the A-727

If you post the chassis number on here someone should be able to tell you whether it is a Mk2 or not.

[GREG]

Is a series 6 411 worth more than any other model -- YES

That answers the question on originality ?

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted by GREG

Is a series 6 411 worth more than any other model -- YES

That answers the question on originality ?

No it doesn't.

If you've just spent £128,000 having the factory refurbish and upgrade a 411 to "Series 6" spec, you would expect (or at least hope) it would be worth more than any other model, at least any other V8 model.

It bears no comparison to a 408 with a 340 six pack.

The word "factory" makes a big difference, in most people's minds when it comes to originality and value.

Generally speaking, it is not correct to say that you can change an engine in a classic car to an engine that has never been fitted by the factory, and the car retain it's originality value.

I'm not being critical of Andy for buying a modified 408, after all I have modified my own 411, but Andy did ask the question and I believe he should have a realistic answer.

The saving grace for Andy is that the engine fitted to his 408 is a quite valuable engine on it's own. But it's value does depend on it's condition, the spec of the internal components, and how many times it has been re-bored. But that's another topic.

[Ronald G. Stephenson]

Some would advise to immediately seek out the original engine of that displacement. The 313 was a Chrysler Canadian engine, and the ubigutious 318 were manufactured by the millions. Your 340 is a small block Chrysler out of he same family, but is what is referred to as an LA engine. Your car, being a 1964 had one of the early small blocks and it was a different family. The idea of a six-pack on it steps up the performance substantially over the old engine, but if you choose to revert back to original, that will not be a hard thing to do. It all depends upon what you want. I would keep the 340 in there and enjoy the performance. I would also source an old 313, and set it aside in case you get the itch for 'originality' or if you decide to sell the car. The torqueflite automatic bolts behind both engines. Enjoy!

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted by Ronald G. Stephenson

The 313 was a Chrysler Canadian engine, and the ubigutious 318 were manufactured by the millions. Your 340 is a small block Chrysler out of he same family, but is what is referred to as an LA engine.

The 340 is NOT the same family of engine as the 313 and 318 engines used by Bristol.

The 313 and 318 engines used by Bristol were "A" series engines, with a polyspherical cylinder head chamber. The engines are commonly referred to as "Poly" engines.

Chrysler then moved on to produce the "LA" series engines which had a wedge shaped head chamber. There are few, if any, interchangeable components between a 318 Poly and a 318 "LA" or wedge head engine.

Unfortunately, the "LA" series engine is commonly referred to as the "A" engine which causes much confusion.

[andyreid3]

Hey Kevin thank you for the reply. The engine itself is in amazing shape and still retains its forged crank, rods, and its original cylinder heads. A single rebuild on the engine using forged pistons from Mopar performance. All hardware is ARP on engine internals.

It is a very valuable engine and makes me not care too much about not having the 313 right now as the intake manifold on the 340 would probably pay for a rebuildable 313.

I only wondered as I have seen quite a few engine upgrades on Bristol cars and those seem to sell for pretty good money still.

[Bryn Tirion]

This is old, but I think worth a bit more input. I have always understood that since the Bristol factory was always willing to upgrade your V8 Bristol at a price, there is no penalty in value (or in exhibition) so long as you do something that they would have done. So putting in a later Torqueflite is fine, and putting in a 383 (for instance) would be fine. A 340 would not have been an option, as it was never fitted to Bristols, and is indeed a lumpy street engine and not a smooth cruising Bristol engine. I happen to think the 313 is a fine engine, developing 250 bhp at 4400 rpm stock from Plymouth Canada. They can be sourced easily in Canada, having been put in Plymouth Belvederes and Dodge Senecas among others, and even in combine harvesters (my neighbour has one in a Massey Harris combine). They could easily be booted up slightly to a 318, but keep in mind that this is an A engine and not an LA, as pointed out by others, so one has to be careful about the 318 parts and what hey are intended to fit. The 318 version of the A engine was put in a number of US market models also, between about 1958 and 1962.

[rkirk304]

I bought Andy's 408 last year.
It has needed some work on its steering and also the petrol tank. But the biggest issue has been its engine.
Luckily the 340 "six pack" is an object of great interest to Mopar nuts. With new inlet manifolds, pushrods and much work trying to get the carburetors right it now produces enormous amounts of power.
It is however a little corse, and doesn't like being smooth at 70mph, although pulls like a train beyond 100mph.
If anyone knows of good 313 or 318, I would be very interested in purchasing it. I live in the US, so shipping from Canada would be easy.
The 340 is quite valuable, and I have plenty of potential buyers for that.

[Bob318]

Originally Posted by Bryn Tirion

This is old, but I think worth a bit more input. I have always understood that since the Bristol factory was always willing to upgrade your V8 Bristol at a price, there is no penalty in value (or in exhibition) so long as you do something that they would have done. So putting in a later Torqueflite is fine, and putting in a 383 (for instance) would be fine. A 340 would not have been an option, as it was never fitted to Bristols, and is indeed a lumpy street engine and not a smooth cruising Bristol engine. I happen to think the 313 is a fine engine, developing 250 bhp at 4400 rpm stock from Plymouth Canada. They can be sourced easily in Canada, having been put in Plymouth Belvederes and Dodge Senecas among others, and even in combine harvesters (my neighbour has one in a Massey Harris combine). They could easily be booted up slightly to a 318, but keep in mind that this is an A engine and not an LA, as pointed out by others, so one has to be careful about the 318 parts and what hey are intended to fit. The 318 version of the A engine was put in a number of US market models also, between about 1958 and 1962.

Actually, the 313 and 318 A-series poly engines are essentially the same, save for a slightly larger bore on the 318. There was even a 326 version in 1959 only, and only in Dodges (this had hydraulic lifters vs. the mechanical lifters in ALL other A-series polysphere engines.

The 318 is most common and was in fact offered from 1957 through 1966 in the US and 1967 in Canada. They're easy and cheap to find and buy. And except for the pistons and pushrods, the bottom end is the same as later LA wedge-head 318s (1967 and up for US). Upgrades? The 318 A poly engine is strong to start with, including forged cranks and connecting rods. 1957-58 versions came with two four-barrel carbs and 290 hp; those dual-quad manifolds are plentiful on ebay. So are aftermarket aluminum four-barrel manifolds. HOWEVER, you're better off using an original cast-iron 4-barrel manifold, which is dual-plane for better low-end torque. There were even old Edebrock and Weiand triple two-barrel manifolds--a great option--though they're much rarer.

[Bob318]

Originally Posted by Kevin H

The 340 is NOT the same family of engine as the 313 and 318 engines used by Bristol.

The 313 and 318 engines used by Bristol were "A" series engines, with a polyspherical cylinder head chamber. The engines are commonly referred to as "Poly" engines.

Chrysler then moved on to produce the "LA" series engines which had a wedge shaped head chamber. There are few, if any, interchangeable components between a 318 Poly and a 318 "LA" or wedge head engine.

Unfortunately, the "LA" series engine is commonly referred to as the "A" engine which causes much confusion.

Actually, the 318 A series polysphere and later LA wedge-head versions (at least into the early '70s) use the same forged crankshaft, connecting rods, oil pump, water pump, timing gear, and many other bottom-end parts. Distributors interchange as well. Of course, the pistons and pushrods are different. And of course the heads and intake/exhaust manifolds. The blocks themselves are similar and use the same bore and stroke. The A-series poly 318 has a thicker block, however, versus the thin-wall block on the LA 318.

[rkirk304]

So the 340 is out and a beautiful 318 is sitting on the floor next to the car.
Does anyone know what number Carter 4 barrel AFB carburetor is the right one for the motor?

Thanks.

And to have wheels while the 408 is having an engine transplant, I have just bought a 1972 411. It arrives on the transporter next week!

[GeorgeG]

Sorry, only just seen this request. I believe that the 318 used the Carter 3131S AFB carb.

[Bob318]

My feelng has always been that it's perfectly okay to make performance/reliability/practicality upgrades, and Bristols are no exception. Based on sheer horsepower per cubic inch, it's hard to beat Mopar's 340. Chrysler's threw everything they had at that engine, which puts out far more than it's rated horsepower (numbers designed to fool the insurance companies!).

That said, it's awfully nice to open the hood and see the engine that's meant to be there. As other commenters have noted, there are loads of 318s around for dirt-cheap. You can keep the stock forged cranks and con rods, or put in the entire bottom end from a 340. Growing interest in this "semi-hemi" V8 also means growing parts and value--another reason to stick with the A-series Poly.

While the dual-quad manifold from '57 and '58 Plymouth Furys looks nice, it's essentially a single-plane log manifold that turns the relatively thrifty 318 into a gas guzzler. And as someone mentioned, the most-common Weiand aluminum four-pot manifold is also a single-plane that reduces the low-end grunt these mills are known for.

Best option: An original, if heavy, cast-iron dual-plane manifold made from '56 thru '62 (on the US 277, 301, and 303 and Canadian 303/313 versions of this engine) with, say, a modern Edelbrock four-barrel or even a plug-and-play throttle-body EFI setup. And while you can go all the way over 400 CU IN, the best compromise seems to be boring the A engine out to 3.95 inches (like the '59-only 326) and, perhaps, stroking it to roughly 3.58 inches to bring nearly 360 cubic inches. Or simply leave the stock bore and stroke and enjoy a pleasant combination of torque and reasonable fuel economy.

[Ronald G. Stephenson]

To some, yes. To most people who would just like to own any Bristol, no. Value on old things depends upon demand by collectors, and in the case of Bristols, a very tiny fraction of one percent of the car buying public even knows what a Bristol is. Those of us who have been lucky to own most of the cars they have dreamed of owning in our lives find Bristols, Pegassos, and Facel Vegas as some of the last ones we would like to have, and we continually seek them out. There are others, but we all have unique tastes, and we know that some will never come into our possession. The irony of all this is once you have found your prize, you discover that it is a disappointment. After more than 200 cars, I have yet to find the 'perfect' one. I continue to chase my dreams, which is what the old car hobby is all about.

[andyreid3]

Thank you for the info. I thought as much. My chassis info is below. I have started to look for the 313 engine and I have been told it is an easy and inexpensive purchase as long as you are patient.
It seems that many Bristol cars I have seen, especially 411 and 603 cars have had engine upgrades. I do know that the 340 was an AAR cuda engine and itself pretty valuable, especially with the vintage Holley six pack with manifold and linkage. Also the performance is astonishing yet still very drivable and sedate when you want it to be.

Car details for Chassis 7007.000, 4081007
Manufactured 1964 1st regd. ca 1964
Colour Pale Silver Blue Config RHD
Trim colour Dark Blue Engine T 383 1025
Chassis 7007 Body/Body No. 1-007
Location CT-USA

[GREG]

Andy

I know of your car and I would definitely consider the engine you have as an upgrade that would make me pay more for your car over an original one from Berlin. Others wouldn't,but I don't think you want to sell it, so just enjoy !

You have a superb car

[Stefan]

As Bristols are so rare there will not be a body of sales to make deductions from.

Unless your cars next owner is obsessed with matching numbers I'd say : more bhp, newer engine, more efficient- what's not to like?

More and more Bristols will have later power trains as the years pass and this one is closer than most to original spec.

Hope that helps!
Stefan