411 air conditioning

peter dowdle · #1 (**permalink**) 26-03-20, 12:49 AM

Need advice please on where and how to install an air conditioning compressor on my 411. The normal place for Chrysler products is the centre of the V at the top of the engine. Adapter kits are readily available to suit a variety of compressors but this system does not fit because the alternator brackets are in the way.
Chrysler mount the alternator above the fuel pump which would clear the way but the original alternator would foul the power steering and unless I can find a very compact alternator this will not work. Any advice would be much appreciated.

Geoff Kingston · #2 (**permalink**) 26-03-20, 01:12 AM

Peter
Hopefully someone will come up with a photograph of the original installation, I removed the compressor on my 411 years ago as it was seized up, it was a York unit if I remember correctly and what I do remember was that it was located to the left of the V of the engine if viewed from the front.
I am sure their would be better options available today than this unit.
Geoff.

Xseries · #3 (**permalink**) 27-03-20, 11:06 PM

Herewith some engine bays from some cars that might just help!

Geoff Kingston · #4 (**permalink**) 28-03-20, 12:24 AM

Third from left photo shows a different and neater solution to the set up that was on my 411. On My car the compressor sat in the position of the alternator in that photograph. One of the things to bear in mind on trying to set this up is that all sorts of mounting brackets and drive belts were used over the years and it would be better to try and find a solution that worked in period for Chrysler rather than what Bristol did originally, I may be wrong but I doubt any US car had the same AC compressor fitted that Bristol used.
A trip to a breaker dealing in older US cars may pay dividends and ordering what you need directly from the states could save you quite a bit of money now Bristol Cars are no longer around to help.

peter dowdle · #5 (**permalink**) 28-03-20, 11:48 AM

Thank you Xseries unfortunately the photo to the right is a 411 but is fitted
with a later smaller block motor. The middle photo I am not sure what motor it is, note the dip stick is not in the correct place for a 383. The left photo gives some small idea as to where it is mounted.The choice of compressors isnt easy as most modern compact units would be ideal but come with the wrong pully. The best I have found so far is off an Early Toyota Hi Lux. This could easily be mounted near the alternator and move the alternator to a position near the fuel pump but so far I havnt found one small enough to fit.

peter dowdle · #6 (**permalink**) 28-03-20, 11:51 AM

Geoff if your compressor was mounted where the alternator is shown where was your alternator moved too?

Geoff Kingston · #7 (**permalink**) 28-03-20, 12:19 PM

Peter,
It is on the right hand side of the engine viewed from the front with the power steering pump below it.
Geoff.

Kevin H · #8 (**permalink**) 28-03-20, 01:47 PM

Here are some photos from Geoff Kingston ...

Geoff Kingston · #9 (**permalink**) 28-03-20, 04:56 PM

The two photographs with a compressor in place are actually of my 603E with the 5.2 engine, the other photograph is of the 411 showing the position of the alternator almost directly above the power steering pump.
There would also have been a pump on the engine for the self levelling but that had been removed before I bought the car.
Geoff.

Kevin H · #10 (**permalink**) 29-03-20, 05:06 AM

Here are some pictures of the first AC installation on my 411. The (Denso) compressor is where the alternator was originally and the alternator has been moved to the where the self leveling pump was.

As you can see the condenser was in front of the radiator. The AC worked well, but the engine ran very hot (to hot) on warm days, this was alleviated a little by installing a large electric fan on the back of the radiator, to pull air through, but the engine cooling was still marginal.

Unfortunately the original two electric fans mounted in a cowling in front of the radiator was not a very effective setup.

Kevin H · #11 (**permalink**) 29-03-20, 05:33 AM

This is the second AC installation on my 411. An original Chrysler compressor was used (as per the Jensen Interceptor I believe - not sure who actually made the compressor) along with a multi-rib belt setup. The water cooling and radiator configuration has been changed completely (I'll cover that in a later post). The engine cooling works well, but the old design of compressor is not very effective. I asked Vintage Air about this and they said the old compressors used by Chrysler are significantly inferior to the Denso compressor.

peter dowdle · #12 (**permalink**) 29-03-20, 07:40 AM

Thank you all for your efforts unfortunately no one in the UK seem to worry about air conditioning . The 603 installation of course is with the next generation motor (completely different). Then along came Kevin. How can I thank you enough. Your second installation is very interesting. The new radiator hose must mean a new radiator. The compressor I have not seen its most unusual.The heater hoses have been re positioned. How do you get to the distributor ? I note you require a new pulley or two as your running 3 belts.

The thing I am amazed at is its still possible despite the power steering box to mount an original alternator on the drivers side of the motor , I felt this could not be done.

My current thoughts to use the latest Vintage Compressor which mounts as per standard Chrysler and mount my alternator the same as yours.

Thanks again Kevin.

Im off to the shed.

Kevin H · #13 (**permalink**) 29-03-20, 08:55 AM

Hi Peter,
I will provide more details tomorrow.
Kevin

Kevin H · #14 (**permalink**) 30-03-20, 02:55 AM

Here are some photos on the AC pump and ancillaries and changes we made to the cooling system.

The AC pump (compressor) has a casting number on it 2002747. The pump also has a plate on it with "Chrysler" and a serial number stamped into it.

I should emphasise however that this pump does not seem to perform very well. So if you intend to go down this track you might want to source a remanufactured one from Four Seasons in the USA.

Kevin H · #15 (**permalink**) 30-03-20, 03:55 AM

After installing AC I found that the engine was no longer cooled sufficiently for the Australian summer climate. The reasons were two fold - firstly a condenser was now in front of the radiator and the original twin electric fans mounted in a cowl, were positioned at least 6 inches away from the condenser and were not forcing air through the condenser and radiator - it was too easy for the air to go around these obstructions. A large electric fan was added to the rear of the radiator, this improved the situation, but the engine cooling was still marginal at best on 30+ degree days.

The original, radiator, cowl and fans were removed and a new radiator and twin fan assembly was fabricated. The condenser was moved forward and this new assembly was mounted behind the condenser, so effectively the fan were sandwiched between the condenser and radiator. We found that an additional fan on the back of the radiator was still required, but this was effective in keeping the engine at the correct temperature even in hot weather.

It has since occurred to me that the AC performance may be improved by fitting a fan to the front of the condenser.

Philip · #16 (**permalink**) 30-03-20, 02:08 PM

Puller fans are far more efficient than pusher.

peter dowdle · #17 (**permalink**) 31-03-20, 12:44 AM

Kevin thank you for all of that.

I am now on top of how to set up the alternator , tension pulley and compressor. I am trying to source a new water pump pulley from Elco.

Your radiator , condenser and fan set up I must admit I am a little confused and rather than bore the readers, if you could possibly ring me on 0428574296 or email me your phone number you could talk me through that.

Your latest compressor seems to be a twin system and I guess is a piston pump. I would be looking at the Vintage Air standard pump used on all their systems I believe it is very good. They can even supply a mounting kit ex US for a big block motor. I have been considering using a Toyota Hilux 2.8 Diesel pump which moves plenty of cold air in my old twin cab ute. It only needs one belt to run it and are cheap to buy but would need a fabricated mounting kit made

Thanks again

Kevin H · #18 (**permalink**) 01-04-20, 12:48 AM

Peter,

I think I should explain it here as it might be of interest to others.

The idea of sandwiching the fans between the condenser and the radiator was so that we could maximise the size of the fans on the radiator (because the condenser is smaller than the radiator), and ensure that as much air as possible was forced through the radiator.

However, it may have been just as effective, or even more effective, to mount the condenser on the radiator, and have two big fans on the back of the radiator, pulling air through, and two smaller fans on the front of the condenser.

There's no doubt in my mind that mounting the fans directly on the radiator is far more effective than having the fans mounted in a cowl more than six inches in front of the radiator, which was the original Bristol configuration.

To be honest with you, I was talked into doing numerous modifications and it was so long ago I can't recall the justification for some of them - moving the radiator forward falls into that category. With hindsight I don't think I should have allowed this to be done, because I don't think it was really necessary and of course it is another step away from originality.

Thankfully I do still have the original radiator and mounting brackets.

The compressor in my later setup was used because it is the original compressor that would have been found on these Chrysler engines (I'm fairly sure it is what was used on the Jensen Interceptor), so the mounting points were already there. However, based on my experience I do think you would be better off using a modern compressor. My AC system is also from Vintage Air and it came with a Denso compressor. Having to fabricate some brackets shouldn't be a huge job - just getting the alignment right could be tricky.

Let me know if you still want me to call you to discuss further.

peter dowdle · #19 (**permalink**) 01-04-20, 01:29 AM

Spoke to my radiator man who I have a lot of time for. He suggests I fit the air conditioner radiator hard up against the front of the cars radiator and have it sealed at the edges, this will cause the fans mounted at the rear of the radiator to draw the air through both. The fan wiring will need to be modified so that as soon as the air is switched on the fans will run.

If the air is not cold when driving slowly or parked, he suggest fitting a small open fan at the front to force air through the air conditioning radiator. His words were trial and error.

Back to the shed. I have the alternator installed to the drivers side next to the distributor with sufficient movement to take up the slack on the belt without needing an adjustable tension pulley, hoping to get away with fixed pulley. Thats my next task. I also ordered today a Vintage Air compressor $395.00 Australian for which I will need to make a fixed mounting bracket.

paul robert · #20 (**permalink**) 05-05-20, 05:35 PM

If it is of any interest I can show you the set up in my 75 Interceptor. My 411 does not have A/C and I do not intend to install one.
We've had the Interceptor in the family since new so i've witnessed all the ups/ downs and lessons to be learned.
The A/C never was very effective which I always found strange because American cars are normally known for blowing icecold.
The one you describe is standard Chrysler (twin piston I believe) ware, heavy and eats a lot of power.
Some years ago I bought a complete kit with a Sanden compressor. Bolts right in, much lighter better performance and less power consuming. It also looks better. I think I paid around £950 for the kit at a UK shop catering exclusively to Jensens.
The condenser sits in front of the radiator on top of an engine oil cooler and the fans are pull fans sitting in the original shroud behind the radiator but quite close. I long ago changed the Kenlowes for Audi units of the same diameter.
I looked at the 411 and I think it'll fit in with a minimum amount of fettling.
If it helps I can take some pics tomorrow.
Paul