411 air conditioning
 

Need advice please on where and how to install an air conditioning compressor on my 411. The normal place for Chrysler products is the centre of the V at the top of the engine. Adapter kits are readily available to suit a variety of compressors but this system does not fit because the alternator brackets are in the way.
Chrysler mount the alternator above the fuel pump which would clear the way but the original alternator would foul the power steering and unless I can find a very compact alternator this will not work. Any advice would be much appreciated.

Peter
Hopefully someone will come up with a photograph of the original installation, I removed the compressor on my 411 years ago as it was seized up, it was a York unit if I remember correctly and what I do remember was that it was located to the left of the V of the engine if viewed from the front.
I am sure their would be better options available today than this unit.
Geoff.

Herewith some engine bays from some cars that might just help!

Third from left photo shows a different and neater solution to the set up that was on my 411. On My car the compressor sat in the position of the alternator in that photograph. One of the things to bear in mind on trying to set this up is that all sorts of mounting brackets and drive belts were used over the years and it would be better to try and find a solution that worked in period for Chrysler rather than what Bristol did originally, I may be wrong but I doubt any US car had the same AC compressor fitted that Bristol used.
A trip to a breaker dealing in older US cars may pay dividends and ordering what you need directly from the states could save you quite a bit of money now Bristol Cars are no longer around to help.

Thank you Xseries unfortunately the photo to the right is a 411 but is fitted
with a later smaller block motor. The middle photo I am not sure what motor it is, note the dip stick is not in the correct place for a 383. The left photo gives some small idea as to where it is mounted.The choice of compressors isnt easy as most modern compact units would be ideal but come with the wrong pully. The best I have found so far is off an Early Toyota Hi Lux. This could easily be mounted near the alternator and move the alternator to a position near the fuel pump but so far I havnt found one small enough to fit.

Geoff if your compressor was mounted where the alternator is shown where was your alternator moved too?

Peter,
It is on the right hand side of the engine viewed from the front with the power steering pump below it.
Geoff.

Here are some photos from Geoff Kingston ...

The two photographs with a compressor in place are actually of my 603E with the 5.2 engine, the other photograph is of the 411 showing the position of the alternator almost directly above the power steering pump.
There would also have been a pump on the engine for the self levelling but that had been removed before I bought the car.
Geoff.

Here are some pictures of the first AC installation on my 411. The (Denso) compressor is where the alternator was originally and the alternator has been moved to the where the self leveling pump was.


As you can see the condenser was in front of the radiator. The AC worked well, but the engine ran very hot (to hot) on warm days, this was alleviated a little by installing a large electric fan on the back of the radiator, to pull air through, but the engine cooling was still marginal.


Unfortunately the original two electric fans mounted in a cowling in front of the radiator was not a very effective setup.

This is the second AC installation on my 411. An original Chrysler compressor was used (as per the Jensen Interceptor I believe - not sure who actually made the compressor) along with a multi-rib belt setup. The water cooling and radiator configuration has been changed completely (I'll cover that in a later post). The engine cooling works well, but the old design of compressor is not very effective. I asked Vintage Air about this and they said the old compressors used by Chrysler are significantly inferior to the Denso compressor.

Thank you all for your efforts unfortunately no one in the UK seem to worry about air conditioning . The 603 installation of course is with the next generation motor (completely different). Then along came Kevin. How can I thank you enough. Your second installation is very interesting. The new radiator hose must mean a new radiator. The compressor I have not seen its most unusual.The heater hoses have been re positioned. How do you get to the distributor ? I note you require a new pulley or two as your running 3 belts.

The thing I am amazed at is its still possible despite the power steering box to mount an original alternator on the drivers side of the motor , I felt this could not be done.

My current thoughts to use the latest Vintage Compressor which mounts as per standard Chrysler and mount my alternator the same as yours.

Thanks again Kevin.


Im off to the shed.

Hi Peter,
I will provide more details tomorrow.
Kevin

Here are some photos on the AC pump and ancillaries and changes we made to the cooling system.

The AC pump (compressor) has a casting number on it 2002747. The pump also has a plate on it with "Chrysler" and a serial number stamped into it.

I should emphasise however that this pump does not seem to perform very well. So if you intend to go down this track you might want to source a remanufactured one from Four Seasons in the USA.

changes to the cooling system
 

After installing AC I found that the engine was no longer cooled sufficiently for the Australian summer climate. The reasons were two fold - firstly a condenser was now in front of the radiator and the original twin electric fans mounted in a cowl, were positioned at least 6 inches away from the condenser and were not forcing air through the condenser and radiator - it was too easy for the air to go around these obstructions. A large electric fan was added to the rear of the radiator, this improved the situation, but the engine cooling was still marginal at best on 30+ degree days.

The original, radiator, cowl and fans were removed and a new radiator and twin fan assembly was fabricated. The condenser was moved forward and this new assembly was mounted behind the condenser, so effectively the fan were sandwiched between the condenser and radiator. We found that an additional fan on the back of the radiator was still required, but this was effective in keeping the engine at the correct temperature even in hot weather.

It has since occurred to me that the AC performance may be improved by fitting a fan to the front of the condenser.

Puller fans are far more efficient than pusher.

Kevin thank you for all of that.

I am now on top of how to set up the alternator , tension pulley and compressor. I am trying to source a new water pump pulley from Elco.

Your radiator , condenser and fan set up I must admit I am a little confused and rather than bore the readers, if you could possibly ring me on 0428574296 or email me your phone number you could talk me through that.

Your latest compressor seems to be a twin system and I guess is a piston pump. I would be looking at the Vintage Air standard pump used on all their systems I believe it is very good. They can even supply a mounting kit ex US for a big block motor. I have been considering using a Toyota Hilux 2.8 Diesel pump which moves plenty of cold air in my old twin cab ute. It only needs one belt to run it and are cheap to buy but would need a fabricated mounting kit made

Thanks again

Peter,

I think I should explain it here as it might be of interest to others.

The idea of sandwiching the fans between the condenser and the radiator was so that we could maximise the size of the fans on the radiator (because the condenser is smaller than the radiator), and ensure that as much air as possible was forced through the radiator.

However, it may have been just as effective, or even more effective, to mount the condenser on the radiator, and have two big fans on the back of the radiator, pulling air through, and two smaller fans on the front of the condenser.

There's no doubt in my mind that mounting the fans directly on the radiator is far more effective than having the fans mounted in a cowl more than six inches in front of the radiator, which was the original Bristol configuration.

To be honest with you, I was talked into doing numerous modifications and it was so long ago I can't recall the justification for some of them - moving the radiator forward falls into that category. With hindsight I don't think I should have allowed this to be done, because I don't think it was really necessary and of course it is another step away from originality.

Thankfully I do still have the original radiator and mounting brackets.

The compressor in my later setup was used because it is the original compressor that would have been found on these Chrysler engines (I'm fairly sure it is what was used on the Jensen Interceptor), so the mounting points were already there. However, based on my experience I do think you would be better off using a modern compressor. My AC system is also from Vintage Air and it came with a Denso compressor. Having to fabricate some brackets shouldn't be a huge job - just getting the alignment right could be tricky.

Let me know if you still want me to call you to discuss further.

Spoke to my radiator man who I have a lot of time for. He suggests I fit the air conditioner radiator hard up against the front of the cars radiator and have it sealed at the edges, this will cause the fans mounted at the rear of the radiator to draw the air through both. The fan wiring will need to be modified so that as soon as the air is switched on the fans will run.

If the air is not cold when driving slowly or parked, he suggest fitting a small open fan at the front to force air through the air conditioning radiator. His words were trial and error.

Back to the shed. I have the alternator installed to the drivers side next to the distributor with sufficient movement to take up the slack on the belt without needing an adjustable tension pulley, hoping to get away with fixed pulley. Thats my next task. I also ordered today a Vintage Air compressor $395.00 Australian for which I will need to make a fixed mounting bracket.

If it is of any interest I can show you the set up in my 75 Interceptor. My 411 does not have A/C and I do not intend to install one.
We've had the Interceptor in the family since new so i've witnessed all the ups/ downs and lessons to be learned.
The A/C never was very effective which I always found strange because American cars are normally known for blowing icecold.
The one you describe is standard Chrysler (twin piston I believe) ware, heavy and eats a lot of power.
Some years ago I bought a complete kit with a Sanden compressor. Bolts right in, much lighter better performance and less power consuming. It also looks better. I think I paid around £950 for the kit at a UK shop catering exclusively to Jensens.
The condenser sits in front of the radiator on top of an engine oil cooler and the fans are pull fans sitting in the original shroud behind the radiator but quite close. I long ago changed the Kenlowes for Audi units of the same diameter.
I looked at the 411 and I think it'll fit in with a minimum amount of fettling.
If it helps I can take some pics tomorrow.
Paul

Paul,
I would be very interested to see some pictures of your AC system.

I had a Vintage Air system installed on my 411 about 20 years ago, but it was a bit of a bodge job and the compressor did not bolt straight onto the intake manifold or the block.

I had an engine rebuild done by a Jensen specialist who convinced me to go with the original Chrysler AC compressor. It is a more tidy installation, but it's performance was very poor by comparison. It also resulted in the power steering pump being at a 45 degree angle which is far from ideal. I later asked Vintage Air about this and they said the modern compressors are far superior in performance.


Regards,
Kevin

Hello Kevin,
Here goes. Remember this is a LHD Interceptor with a 440. But the kits fit RHD as well and all brackets and bolt on points are the same as on 383.
The kit came with all bits needed, brackets hoses, dryer, condenser, the lot and was a doddle to install.Please note I have a higher output alternator and have a similar one on the 411 but mounted on the other side of course.
The fan shroud is original Jensen with newer Bosch fans off an Audi. the rubber flap let air though at speed but the fans pull them closed when they're on.
As I said the condenser sits in front of the radiator but does not have its own fan. Hope this helps, best Paul

Kevin

I have had brackets made up to install the vintage air compressor to our motors.They bolt slightly to the right of the thermostat housing in the valley.I can have extra sets made quite easily and cheaply if you wish. This setup requires the alternator to be moved to the left of the motor above the steering box.

Sorry about the delayed responses!

Thanks Peter,
Any chance of a photo?
My alternator has already been moved. The main issue I have, (other than the fact that I'm using a very inefficient Chrysler compressor), is that my power steering pump is on an angle!


Thanks Paul. That's one very clean engine bay! Interesting to see those rocker covers - did they come standard with "Jensen" cast (or machined) into them?
.

Yes they are standard Jensen cast ally covers. They do a lot to lift up an otherwise pretty dull looking engine. Much to my surprise I discovered my Bristol had the same ones but whoever put them on there had a little aluminium, Bristol machined plate made to cover the Jensen name.

Kevin I will organize some photos shortly. The brackets are very simple just 2 flat plates that utilize the long bolt that the power steering pump pivots on. I do not understand what the problem is as to why you are having problems with the mounting of your pump, mine sits in its normal position as supplied by Bristol and that matter Chrysler.

The integration of my Vintage Air system is slowly progressing but as you have pointed out it isnt easy to fit the unit where the original blower and heater were sitting. I have decided to mount it in such a way that it protrudes through the floor of the shelf that the heater and blower sat on so that the bottom half of the unit sits flush on the gearbox tunnel and the top half in the engine compartment. I then need to make up a steel cover to seal the cockpit from the engine bay. To that end I have made up a plywood mock up of the firewall and heater shelf and fitted the test unit vintage air supply. I now should be able to tap into the original air box that supplies the 4 dash vents and likewise the windscreen vents.

Continue. With that installation and the vintage air 4 knob switches I will have hot and cold air to my feet , the dash and the windscreen. The only thing missing is fresh air from out side. The big hold up is there are no units available in Australia till mid June .If all this goes to plan looking under the bonnet the soft cover that fitted over the original heater and blower will remain unaltered and in place.

Has anyone installed air conditioning in a 410, apart from the factory of course. I contacted Fen Air but they said it was too big a job as my car had never had A/C and they weren't prepared to do it.

I am planning to install a Vintage Air unit in my 410. One of the members of the Chiltern section of the BOC installed one in a 408 and was very pleased with the result.

I have been looking at the Heritage under dash cool only unit.

Thanks David. Did your car have a/c originally or is this a new installation? I would be interested to hear how you get on.
I guess you will retain the factory heater as well. I had thought it might be possible to remove the heater and blower and site the evaporator in its place and just pipe the air from there.
Best wishes
Bob Livermore

I don't remember seeing a 410 with air con from new. I imagine a few were modified by the factory. Hopefully someone will be able to contribute pictures. New compressors are much smaller and lighter so it should be easier to do a neat installation now.

I decided that replacement of the original heater / blower would be too invasive and far too much work. A cool air only unit would be easily removed by a future owner wanting to go back to original. It would also allow warm air to the feet and cool air to the face.

Will let you know if I make any progress. For now the priority is getting the overdrive and lockup switching sorted.

My 411 has a factory installed under dash unit. I really dont like the setup, as it makes the legroom for my left leg a bit narrow. When I turn my knee to the left, it touches the corner of the evaporater housing

To Continue My Posting Of A Couple Of Years Ago Where I Was Trying To Instal Intergrated Air Which Would Feed Air Through The Existing Air Ducts And Not Have A Unit Hanging Below The Dash I Must Say That I Have Largely Achieved My Goal Of Having A Fully Intergrated System Which Would Leave The Cockpit Of The Car Basically Unchanged.

It Has Taken A Lot Of Work And Experimentation To Get To This Stage . Unfortunately Though I Have One Major Problem And That Is While The Vintage Air Unit Actually Works Its Fan Really Is Not Up To Pushing The The Air Though Itsels And On Through The Various Tubes And Vents Built Into The Bristol Dash. This Means That On A Hot Day In Australia It Is Not Realy Up To The Job.

I Either Need To Some How Instal A Booster Fan To Force Air Through The System Or

Pull Out The Gen 2 Cooling System And Replace It With An Underdash System Like A Vintage Air Slimline Under Dash. I Fear That The Second Option Including Reinstalling The Heat Will Be Where I End Up