Fair Comparisons
 

I own a Bristol 408 and I am always amazed how close the performance in speed and braking is to a modern car (not modified ). This being the case, the 411 I assume is the equivalent of a lot of standard modern makes. My every day is a Mercedes 320CDI Estate.

A few people on this forum mention owning Aston's , Bentleys , Jag's ,Ferrari's and all the other top of the range marques. As I have never really had the chance to drive any of the Bristol alternatives I was wondering how they compared through the 60's and 70's and even 80's and if favourable, given the comparative rarity , why do the values not compare or even exceed the other makes.

Most people I meet have never heard of Bristol and the people that have are very surprised that they still exist especially without having breaks for bankruptcy or hobby buyers from Russia ! Is it the fact that being little known is the obstacle to recognised high value ? or are they perceived as bland by some classic car followers. Although the Bristol marque does seem to be more recognised in the last year or two.

Greg

Fair Comparisons
 

I think the fact that Bristols are relatively undervalued is that they have always been a well kept secret. You just know that the head of MI5 must have driven a Bristol, and possibly still does.

Classic car values seem to be driven in large part by older wealthier people buying the car they dreamed about when they were younger. Not many teenagers fantasise about owning an understated car that is deliberately kept out of the press to preserve it's anonymity so they didn't grow up with an aching desire to recapture their youth by buying a Bristol as the poster car of their teens. Hence the mid life crisis money is queuing up to buy some pretty (awful) junk elsewhere.

Bristol classic buyers are buying the engineering and build quality, not the image per se, I would have thought. Build quality, low running costs and engineering aside, I like the image as it seems to be the only way to travel around in rapid cosseted luxury without offending anyone.

As an aside, the vast majority of Bristol Owners seem to use Macs, which I think reveals an individual streak where utility and quality are more important than following the masses.

I think the values will rise, it has become more difficult to find cars of late, and people are now investing a lot of money in first rate rebuilds like the series 6 conversions. The supply is so limited that it doesn't take much to tip the supply/demand curve upwards, especially when people realise that you do actually recoup the cost of your restoration if it is done well.

Maybe we should all continue to keep shtum.

Hi Kevin

Would it be helpful if we broke Paul's post down to its component parts for easy refutation?

1. relatively undervalued is that they have always been a well kept secret.
2. You just know that the head of MI5 must have driven a Bristol
2.a. and possibly still does.
3. Classic car values seem to be driven in large part by older wealthier people
3.a. buying the car they dreamed about when they were younger.
3.b. Hence the mid life crisis money is queuing up to buy some pretty (awful) junk elsewhere.
4. Not many teenagers fantasise about owning an understated car that is deliberately kept out of the press to preserve it's anonymity
4.a. so they didn't grow up with an aching desire to recapture their youth by buying a Bristol as the poster car of their teens.
5. Bristol classic buyers are buying the engineering and build quality
6. not the image per se
6.a. I would have thought.
7. Build quality, low running costs and engineering aside
8. I like the image as it seems to be the only way to travel around in rapid cosseted luxury
8.a without offending anyone.
9. As an aside,
10. the vast majority of Bristol Owners seem to use Macs
10.a which I think reveals an individual streak
10.b where utility and quality are more important than following the masses.
11. I think the values will rise
12. it has become more difficult to find cars of late
13. people are now investing a lot of money in first rate rebuilds like the series 6 conversions.
14. The supply is so limited
14.a. that it doesn't take much
14.b to tip the supply/demand curve upwards
14.c. especially when people realise
14.d. that you do actually recoup the cost of your restoration if it is done well.
15. Maybe we should all continue to keep shtum.

Regards

Peter

I agree with Lansdownplace -again
 

I don't believe it - we agree again. I bet a few people do the "I don't believe it"

I am really interested to know if say a 411 S3 compared to the Astons of the day stands up. I was surprised when I had a drive of an early E Type ( my first car love ) how shyte it was to drive. I do believe my 408 is better and maybe quicker. Also early on I realised I would always want a car big enough for my dog, mates, stuff , and wife.
- Note the order. and I have just bought her a new ironing board cover for valentines day :-)

Greg

Please refute away as they were genuine questions - seems a lot to go at but the first one is easy as I am head of MI5 -- oops

Greg

Or is Kevin's permission needed for refutation to begin -- tee hee

Fair Comparisons
 

Perhaps another reason, if I dare mention it, is the fact that the 8 cyl Bristol cars are coach built in England, and have a mass produced engine from the USA under the bonnet. Nothing wrong with that intrinsically, but it can be argued that this makes it less of a thoroughbred than say the Aston equivalent, and perhaps less sought after for that reason. How's that for controversy? The same may be said for Jensens, Facels etc. I have to declare myself as a a 6 cyl owner, but did previously own a 411 S2. I am also an Aston owner, which I find to be more engaging as a drivers car than an 8 cyl Bristol, but I do like the fact that the Bristol is more understated.

Paul

Fair Comparisons
 

Hi Paul, undoubtedly the lack of an in house engine is an impediment for many car enthusiasts, However you would have expected a bigger following for the 6 cyl engines on that basis, especially as it was so good. If you look at the value of other marques using the Bristol engine they are currently more expensive by some margin.

In part this could be because of their racing association, which again leads back to me poster boy theory of demand. It all comes back to publicity and image in the end.

Paul

That is probably it. Bristols and Jensons were better cars than a lot of the competition but not classed as thoroughbred. None of the others had 4wd like Jenson though. I think the V8's were probably closer to being a real thoroughbred than the BMW replicas ?

Greg

V8 Bristols and Astons are completely different beasts in my opinion.

I've owned several Astons and I would have to class them all as "sports" or "grand tourers". The cars I had were all very good to drive, considering their age (I don't expect a 1959 DB MkIII to drive like a 1982 V8 Volante).

The Bristol 411 doesn't feel like a sports car, or even a GT, but nor was it supposed to I assume. It's really a saloon, with a large coupe body.

How was it shyte?
Comfort/ride, and/or handling?
Was the E-Type a well maintained example?
Are you comparing cars that are on a par in terms of mechanical condition?

My DB6 was a death trap when I first drove it and I am sure you can find a few Bristols that don't drive very well either!

As for the values, I'd have to agree with Paul D - the fact that Astons have their own engines, compared with mass produced US donks, would be a factor.

It's possible that Bristol's anonymity works against it in terms of classic car market values. Unlike Astons and Ferrari, Bristol V8's don't have much of an identity. Astons, Ferraris and the like have been well marketed over decades, by both the makers and especially their dealers, which of course Bristol had none of once Tony Crook became involved.

A much bigger factor however, is the car type. Name another large saloon contemporary with the 411 that commands significantly better prices?

Then there's the styling. I had a light metallic blue 1970 Aston DB6 Mk2 which was a gorgeous looking thing, admired by most people who saw it, women included, even if they didn't know what it was. Plenty of people recognised it as the James Bond car, even though it wasn't!

Bristol 411s however are definitely an acquired taste, and earlier V8 Bristols even more so.

Personally however, I always felt a bit too conspicuous driving an old Aston. The fact that very few people know what the Bristol is actually appeals to me.

Fair Comparisons
 

Would it be helpful if we broke Paul's post down
to its component parts for easy refutation?

Let me take a pot shot at a favourite peeve...

10. the vast majority of Bristol Owners seem to use Macs
10.a which I think reveals an individual streak
10.b where utility and quality are more important
than following the masses.

Umh, using a Mac is following the masses. It's paying a
very high price for somebody else figuring out what your
user experience should be, and locking you into it. But
at least Apple manages to wrap it in a solid layer of
trendiness, so that real Macinistas will buy anything
that is translucent white and has a name beginning with
"i".

Real individualists use Linux :)

For a good analogy with cars, see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_The_...e_Command_Line

Julf

I agree

The E Type I had a drive in was probably a bit tired. Most of all, it had been a dream car for so long that I think my expectations were unreasonably high. I still think that most people would be surprised by how unrefined they are that haven't driven one whereas the expectations for an early V8 Bristol is probably much lower resulting in a pleasant surprise.

It is hard to think of any big saloon that commands much higher prices - Maybe a Citroen, but I would have thought that Bristols are more scarce than the others and that would push the price up.

It's funny how taste differs. When I was looking to buy a Bristol I knew the 411 was more refined to live with but thought they were pug ugly compared to the 408 especially after S2 when they started to head towards 412 looks - boxy.

The look has grown on me since but if I was going to have a car with the 411 S6 treatment it would be in the 408 body.

Good job we are all different.

Greg

Fair Comparisons
 

Hi Julf, Linux users probably build their own kit cars and spend
every waking hour 'adapting' them to get them to do anything.

I like being able to turn a key an go myself

P

I don't know enough about the 6 cyl Bristols to comment, but the build quality of the 411s wasn't anything special. I would be interested to know why the engineering of the V8 cars could be considered better than many contemporary rivals.

Ha ha, I must have missed the survey!

I haven't seen a 411 "Series 6" on the secondhand market yet, but I would be very surprised if one could be resold for what it cost to upgrade (£128K?) As for restoring other standard Bristols, they're just like any other classic car restoration - it would be very rare to recoup what was spent (if it was done well).

I hope values will rise now that Bristol is more open and transparent, Toby is clearly making efforts to get more press exposure and the Fighter T has attracted more attention than any Bristol in the last 40 years.

The "big saloon" part is the problem. They're just not sexy.

Wealthy guys having the mid life crisis (and premier league soccer players) are out to get a "toy" and it generally needs to also be a status symbol. A big saloon with a Chrysler V8 just doesn't cut it, they don't cost enough :)

Fair Comparisons
 

Julf:

Not sure who established that Bristol owners are Apple/Mac persons. I
am one from the beginning but later while chair of a small computer
company that embraced IBM/Microsoft technology. Well, I spent so much
time and money trying to find out what to do with Microsoft/IBM, I
resigned from the company and the machine. Now, that's some time ago,
but I approach all Microsoft products with caution. I know they are
now inescapable, but prefer them on an Apple platform..

Sean

Over time: 401; 406; 405; 406Z

If the Beacham Jag's are anything to go by, the 411 S6 should hold a lot of the value. In fact I bet Beacham would do a good job of that type of restoration on a Bristol and seem to have a good name along with the Eagle E type. As Kevin said , a Bristol is the same as most quality cars under the skin.

It would be interesting to find out what Eagle or Beacham would charge to create their version of a series six. Of course it wouldn't have the same kudos as being built by the original manufacturer and the warranty that goes with it. Nevertheless it would probably be as good ?

Fair Comparisons
 

Hi Paul, this is a very interesting point, and I think you are right about the racing association. The majority of other makes using Bristol engines were designed for racing or at least as sports cars for the road (AC, FN, Arnolt, Cooper etc). None of the original Bristol cars could be described as true sports cars. Two seater open sports cars will always be more sought after than closed 4 seaters for non-everyday ownership. Also Bristol styling has never catered for mainstream tastes - to most they are simply considered to be awkward looking, whether of the 6 cyl or 8 cyl variety. To a minority, that is big part of their charm, combined with the pedigree of engineering excellence.

Paul

Fair Comparisons
 

Hi Kevin, I think you need to look at the top notch 411 restorations and S6s to appreciate why the press at the time thought that Bristol had a seat at the very top of the build quality tree. Interestingly the cars from the 412 onwards are the most 'in house' of the V8s looking at Christopher Balfour's book as prior to that the coachwork and painting were outsourced from the early 60s.

The Jag E type is much aspired to, but all the owners I have met say it is a great way to enjoy the countryside, standing in it beside your e-type waiting for the AA. The Italian exotics are notorious for being temperamental. Bristols keep going.

Fair Comparisons
 

I wonder why people treat the quality of Bristols so high. They rust like any other car, they have technical problems like any other car. If I look at my Mercedes 220 SE from 1960 I see no difference in the quality compared to a Bristol. I guess the value will rise if Bristol is willing to open themselves a little bit more to the public like other companies producing such expensive cars like Königsegg or Wiesmann.The funny thing in Germany - I raise far more notice with my frog or my Rover P4 than with my Bristol 408 because nobody knows the company and has no idea about the car. A DB5 is well known from Bond - so people know what to expect. Hans

You wouldn't see any difference in quality. Mercs were built to last in those days and you really could see the vast difference in quality compared to any other car on the road. It no doubt equalled or even exceeded the quality of Bristols. You could also tell the difference in price. Even if your 220SE was the saloon, it was probably twice the price of a 3.4 Mark2 Jaguar. Coupe's were perhaps three times the price! Today however, other manufacturers have caught up as quality control has become much more importance and good quality parts can be produced more cheaply. It's well known that Mercedes have almost taken a backward step in this field as people's perception of Mercedes Benz quality has gone downward and you get many 'They don't make them like they used to....' comments.
I borrowed an ML a few months back and the quality of the interior palstics was risible and out of place in a £45k car.

Fair Comparisons
 

Hi all -

The older Brooklands Portfolio on Bristol Cars has several articles
comparing Bristols to other similar cars. Worth reading! The book
is still available - most expensive soft-cover book I've ever bought.

Bob

Fair Comparisons
 

Values and quality are very subjective. The other quality makes mentioned,
are built in larger numbers and at any given time will be on the market in
the "used" section of the newspaper. You can then establish a value based on
sales. With a Bristol this is difficult and hence depreciation is high.
I see a Bristol as a very individual car and has a certain "je ne sais
quoi" about it and that is sufficient for me.
I have not found Bristol quality / engineering to be that much better or
even as good as some of their competitors. The mechanics are sourced outside
and are of the same quality that is available from that supplier, who is
also supplying other auto manufacturers. Chrysler does not build a "special"
engine for Bristol.
It is good but I would not place quality / engineering on the top of the
list. Again a subjective valuation. When I read in these posts of light
assemblies becoming scarce because Bristol had bought them from Lancias I
really have to struggle with the word "quality". Lancia Betas / Montecarlos
are not even Lancias as they are Fiats in disguise.
When I need a light assembly for my 66 Mercedes coupe, the dealer will have
them air freighted from Germany at no extra cost! They will have them in
stock 35 years later. They were designed and built for that car and in
common with no other! That combination = quality!

Dorien

Paul,
I have no doubt that some restorations of Bristols and the 411 S6 upgrade, result in a car that was better than new. But you can take almost ANY classic car and restore/upgrade it so it is better than when it originally came out of the factory.

However, when you were talking about why people buy Bristols I thought you were talking more in a general sense.

I bought 411 because I considered it to be a "practical" classic which can comfortably transport 4 people. The anonymity also appeals to me and the fact that I will never see another one pull up beside me at the lights (there are only 2 or 3 411 S5s in Australia - when I bought mine I think it was the only one).

I must admit I thought I was also buying something special in terms of engineering and quality, mainly due to reading Setright's 'A Private Car'. However once I started working on the car I soon realised that engineering and quality were nothing special (apart from the panel fit, which is excellent).

I would describe the engineering as relatively simple and robust - nothing wrong with that, because it does the job. Fortunately most quality issues can be addresses retrospectively, albeit at some expense.

To a large extent it is the "link" with an aeroplane manufacturer, combined with the new purchase price and exclusivity. In other words, it's largely perception. In reality I suspect quality started diminishing shortly after the car business became detached from the aeroplane business.

Getting back to values. It's ironic that while other classic "prestige" cars, particularly sports cars such as Astons, fetch much higher prices today, they were usually cheaper than Bristols when they were new.

Most of the other manufacturers went bust, (Aston went broke several times), probably because their development costs were much higher and they did more in-house. They also spent more on marketing and they also sold through dealer networks.

Bristol Cars of course is still going today, still in private hands.

I wonder what Bristol 407-412 values would be today if Bristol had developed the prototype BMW V8 engine as Aldington suggested back in the 1940s ...

Fair Comparisons
 

"As an aside, the vast
majority of Bristol Owners seem to use Macs, which I think reveals an
individual streak where utility and quality are more important than
following the masses."

I find this statement alarming as I always assumed the ownership of a Bristol to reveal a truly individual character with some mechanical acumen whereas a Mac is a product of an entirely design and marketing driven firm with very little actual engineering, quality and creativity and whose products provide even less expression of individuality than PCs. Sort of like Bose.

I wonder what Bristol 407-412 values would be today if Bristol had developed the prototype BMW V8 engine as Aldington suggested back in the 1940s ...
Reply With Quote

I don't think they would have made it to 409 - development and manufacturing costs are the killer, especially as a stand alone without aerospace in the group

We will never know - if my aunty had balls etc

Fair Comparisons
 

The straightforward mechanicals also appeal to me, replacing or rebuilding an engine in many classics would be ruinously expensive, whereas in a Bristol (V8) it is eminently affordable and nothing to get unduly stressed about. As with most manufacturers Bristol bought many parts in, they were notorious for testing every item and rejecting more than they accepted so whilst some of the parts are generic, they are all the best of bunch. I have seen some evidence of this approach first hand with shock absorbers, I had new adjustable Spax ones fitted and they had been tested on the factory rig first. The test rig is an interesting piece of manufacturing arcania in itself. It is hitched up to a small engine and gearbox and plots a small graph. It was built in the 40s and is mentioned in some texts somewhere.

On the restoration front, I can only say that my own car was restored back to original spec at the factory so I think I can take that particular car as a reasonable bench mark of it's type. Only 10 more days to go till it gets it's new tricked up engine though!!! it's like being seven again and waiting for Christmas.

Fair Comparisons
 

Having been reading this thread I have realized just how complex the idea of trying to compare different cars can be. Thinking of those I have owned over the last thirty or so years and comparing how the Bristols rated with these is not straightforward. The cars concerned would be 2 x 408 (Mk.1 & Mk2), 412 S2, R-type Bentley, Alvis, Rover 100, Volvo 164, and several SAAB 96s & a 95.

Which did I find the 'best' car? Well, that would depend upon which criterion I had in mind at the time. I have to say that the one I found the most relaxing to drive (and could do such things as drive up from Dartmoor to London, cope with a day's work, then return in the evening and feel like going out to socialize) was the first 408. It just seemed to get on with the job, allow one to drive at an adequate speed (in those pre-Gatzometer days!) and leave one refreshed at the end of the journey. It was also astonishingly reliable, albeit not in the first flush of youth. A close-run second place would go to the R-type, but I often thought that it had been designed with the thought of finding a multitude of little tasks for the chauffeur to attend to when he was not actually chauffeuring (reliability was also only average). The build quality was not great, but the 408 seemed quite a bit superior to that of my 412, which was nowhere near as reliable and corrosion seemed to be more of a feature than it was on either 408. I suppose I should mention under the head of relaxing to drive, reliable, comfortable, and little corrosion after 40 years, the unexciting Volvo 164 — although its petrol consumption is heavier than either the 408 or the Bentley was.

In terms of appreciating the practicalities of the design, then the Bristols and SAABs were clear winners with the antiquated braking system and useless heating system of the R-type and the front suspension and lack of effective oil filtration being noticeable minus points of the 3-litre Alvis (the latter being improved on the later models).

Driving in extremely snowy conditions the SAABs won out, but the Bristols were the runners up here.

As for the best made, well that would have to go to the very much over-engineered P4 Rover — goodness knows how they could afford to devote so much metal and man-hours to a car that retailed for so much less than some of the others I have owned.

I suppose it would fail on most of the above counts (other than ability in heavy snow), but I feel I should also mention that possibly the car that was (nay, still is) the most fun to drive is the Singer Chamois (i.e., Imp with interior wood!) that has been in the family for a very long time as the spare car!

Oh yes, and I have used Apple Macs for 30 years!

Fair Comparisons
 

Don't forget, all current macs can run Windows AND linux at as well as OSX, and all at the same time. PCs can't match that.(Embarrassing fact: macs run Windows faster than same price PCs in tests)

Can't agree that Macs aren't engineered well, or high quality, quite the reverse, my company has to bin it's PC's every couple of years and the Windows servers that were top line two years ago are now redundant and are being trashed, while the apple X-Serves were updated for just £450 quid each, We haven't ever had to retire any of our macs. A bit like a Bristol I suppose.

QUOTE -
Which did I find the 'best' car? Well, that would depend upon which criterion I had in mind at the time. I have to say that the one I found the most relaxing to drive (and could do such things as drive up from Dartmoor to London, cope with a day's work, then return in the evening and feel like going out to socialize) was the first 408. It just seemed to get on with the job, allow one to drive at an adequate speed.

Thanks GEO - exactly the sort of comparison over a long period of time I was thinking off. It's not just me then. My 408 does seem a bit special to others too. I think the awareness and sporting links does explain the values. I wonder just how different that would have been if Bond had driven a Bristol as Flemming originally wrote.

It seems all I need now is a "Mac" and all will be well :)

Fair Comparisons
 

Greg u say 'I wonder just how different that would have been if Bond had
driven a Bristol as Flemming originally wrote'.

I could be wrong so don't shoot me, but didn't Bond actually drive a Bentley
in the books?

Andrew

Several Bentleys, according to this -

List of James Bond vehicles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Fair Comparisons
 

Hello,
As my wife is the 007 expert, I have found out that you are right in saying
JB did have a Bentley in the books. In the start of the Goldfinger movie,
"Q" is told to show 007 the DB5 as a replacement for his existing Bentley.

I like all the reasons for people buying Bristols - a bit like reasoning why
you married a particular woman!

BR
Mike O

Yep - I made the Bond bit up to give you some google practice ! If Bond (Sean Connory ) did have a Bristol, it would have been a 408 - or maybe a 406.

It was the earlier MI5 reference that inspired me. Must put some WD40 on my revolving number plates ! Greg;)

Fair Comparisons
 

Sean,

I approach all Microsoft products with caution.

Agree. I try to steer clear of Microsoft as much as I can. But
the same goes for Apple :)

Julf

Fair Comparisons
 

my company has to bin it's PC's every couple of years

It is very seldom I bin even a PC - they tend to get converted to
Linux and do useful work as servers. Some of the ones I still run
are from the 90's, and some have an uptime since last reboot of
more than 2 years.

Julf

Fair Comparisons
 

Linux users probably build their own kit cars and spend
every waking hour 'adapting' them to get them to do anything.

OK, I realize the discussion is drifting further and further
away from Bristols, but have you tried any of the modern
Linuxes (such as Ubuntu)? On most computers it is "load and go".

Julf

And no, I don't do kit cars, but I have a Brigand, a
Morgan 4/4, a Hesketh motorcycle and a bunch of old
Land Rovers so there is enough to fiddle around with... :)

>

new thread for computer talk
 

Hey guys, how about we discuss the merits of the various computer operating systems over here

extreme provocation :)
 

see here

new thread for computer talk
 

Kevin Howard wrote:

Hey guys, how about we discuss the merits of the various computer
operating systems over here
(http://www.bristolcars.info/forums/o...le-linux.html)

Absolutely - the problem is that the email interface to the
forum is so slow that I posted my responses long before the
message about the new topic got into my inbox.

Julf