An Illustrated History (the new one!)

[Claude]

Originally Posted by Geoff Dowdle

There are so few Bristol Books ever printed we should be happy with what there is or produce our own.

Geoff

Gentlemen (are there any ladies in this forum?)

Geoff's idea is no longer outlandish. Producing a book used to be a major endeavour costing tens of thousands of dollars, resulting in guesswork to avoid a garage full of unsold books, and in the end the risk that on page 37 and 184, you got it hopelessly wrong, but it is unthinkable to issue a reprint.

Now with print-on-demand, Adobe InDesign & Acrobat, and digital cameras, one can write a credible book, publish it for free (yes, you upload for free, and the buyer orders one copy at a time that is printed and shipped for about 2 cents a page B&W or 15 cents a page if colour photos are used). We have published a conventional 256 page full colour book (with over 400 photographs) the old fashioned way - cost us five figures. But for the overseas US and UK market, we used POD, where a zero-profit book costs the customer under $50.

When the reader finds an error on page 37, change it, upload the PDF and the record is set straight. All books ordered thereafter will be right.

I propose that we consider doing such a project. What it will take is a coordinator (not me) to set out the table of contents and then recruit volunteers with knowledge to write each chapter.

I envision an enthusiasts book, containing as much knowledge as possible. How to restore, what parts bin items will fit, all that knowledge that exists in the minds of owners and specialists who otherwise will take it to the grave.

Who is semi-retired, has the interest and the time? I can provide advise on how to do it, as among other things I run a publishing company.

Cheers
Claude

[devadmin]

Wow, I knew self publishing had become a lot easier but I didn't realise 'print on demand' books were now a commercial reality. The main hurdles I see are (a) managing the project, and (b) agreeing on the "facts". Nevertheless, I firmly believe that such a publication would be a a good thing for the marque.

Unlike the past when the mystique of the Bristol was cleverly used as a marketing angle, a lack of available information could now be a hindrance, particularly where resale values are concerned, because people get scared off when they have no idea of restorations costs.

Where the V8 cars are concerned (when much of the secrecy began) there have been numerous "buying guide" articles in popular car magazines over the years that have talked about the enormous complexity of the car's suspension and the vast sums of money required to restore the suspension if it is worn out. This is of course complete nonsense. They are no more expensive to fix than any other classic, and probably cheaper than many, furthermore the parts are still available.

Putting technical and 'how to' information in the public domain will also hopefully prevent a few bodge jobs.

Kevin
(I must try to remember to use my own username when posting!)

[RGSchmitt]

All -

Great idea! I'd add that the Internet - through web pages or a wiki
(not public) would make collaboration very efficient, assuming all
contributors were suitably connected.

I think some legal framework may also be necessary, to credit authors
and protect original work.

It's likely I can contribute my time to a project like this, only
restricted by relocation plans, some consulting work and a lack of
Bristol knowledge.

Bob (only one known Bristol, not mine, within 100 miles)

[geo]

Looking at the postings of Claude, Geoff et al I do have to wonder
how practicable a proposition this would be and have a couple of
thoughts that may or may not be particular to me.

I enjoy the look and feel of a well-produced book and have to admit
that I hate the few print-on-demand types I have - I prefer to leave
them as pdf files and read them on screen. 'Vanity publishing'
appeals to quite a few people, but as someone who has had to read a
number of these volumes, I can attest to the poor quality of most
aspects of the resultant product (knowledge of the subject matter is
the principal reason someone has taken the trouble to produce a book
in the first place and this is frequently the sole area that works
reasonably well).

Think of one of the Bristol books mentioned in one of the other
postings: it is highly informative on most aspects of the Bristol and
conveys a pleasing feel for the marque, but it also contains the same
facts being presented in multiple locations, incorrect captions to
some photographs, duplication of text and so on - and this is from a
respected publisher and has been professionally edited and proof-read.

From a more practical standpoint, who would negotiate and pay the
copyright clearances, decide upon the house style (and technical
style), do the design and layout, deal with the artwork and
photographs (including touch-ups) etc. Writing and publishing a book
involves far more than knocking out the text and then distributing it
- there are many aspects that are unlikely to create a quality effect
without the necessary professional skill and experience. Sure, we can
all write a book and, I daresay, we could all respray and reupholster
our cars . . .

If one went down the multi-author route, then who would be the main
editor and how would contributors feel about having their text hacked
to death? Would this editor be expected to cross-check all the
references and warn readers of those that seemed dubious?

I recall researching material for a book and having the benefit of
documentation from the Rootes family who co-operated; access to quite
a lot of government and private funding archives; and interviewing
many senior and not-so-senior employees including the car designers.
As one usually finds, all these authentic sources told very different
tales and tales that contained much contradiction. Someone has to
resolve these conflicts and it takes truly ages.

One also turns into a sleuth, I recall coming across an incorrect
usage of a German term, then finding it in another source -
eventually, I traced the same 'factual' material through about ten
sources, all of which had appropriated, incorrect as it turned out,
information from either the original source or from each other. Great
for perpetuating myths, but lousy if one wants to get it right.

Just a few spanners for the works?

George

[ozy]

It always amazes me that when topics of this type are floated on many fora, there is always an abundance of armchair experts ready to postulate reasons why 'it can't be done' or 'it would be too difficult'. Will anyone shout up with a can do attitude here I wonder?

I would love to see an erudite, up to date book on the Bristol marque - hopefully not one with creaky didatic prose replete with inaccuracies nor a hopelessly overpriced 'coffee table' offering. Far better a print on demand web based offering than nothing at all! Any budding LJKS types ready to take up the gauntlet?

Ozymandias

[RGSchmitt]

Hi all -

I think the book is a great idea and also appreciate the detailed
list of obstacles - a great checklist to get the project
rolling! Sign me up - I edited my high school newspaper!

Bob

[Peter Grace]

My two pennies' worth.

The two largest 'internal costs' are going to be the editor's time and the
typesetting (an ancient term.)

Like a village cookbook, everyone can contribute a section and therefore the
'writing' part can be divy'd up easily.

I am happy to contribute to the design of it, (as this is my area of
specialty) - subject to an agreed brief and approvals process (we do not
want this run by committee, let alone a forum committee.)

But I can see endless changing and arguing over of millions of facts,
grammar, and most frightening of all, opinion.

Kevin is our resident expert on the pitfalls of personal opinion, as the
founder of BEEF.

And yet, what would be the point of a Bristol book that did not offer a
point of view?

In my opinion, we should (and I don't mean to burden this on Kevin)
investigate writing and editing it online, like Wikipedia, with a similar
approvals process. And once 'finished' then look to publish it the old
fashioned way.

P

[Peter Grace]

Some further thoughts.

1.) What is the aim of this book? Another scrapbook (like the Brooklands
book?), a comprehensive manual for restoration (updateable?), a collection
of essays?, a definitive bible on the marque?
2.) Is the book purely instructional/informational or is it entertaining as
well? If the latter, what provision for high quality photos or
illustrations, or even diagrams?
3.) Is there a legal entity that owns the IP of this book? What happens in
the event of profits or losses? If someone sues, who do they sue?
4.) Can we ask Mr Crook to contribute?

For some reason, probably because it suits me to remember this, it reminds
me of one of my favourite books 'The Cambridge Medieval History'. This eight
volume series took about thirty years to complete, was perhaps the first
truly international effort in compiling books of this kind, was held up by
(I think) both World Wars, and in the making saw a revolution in 'Applied
History' that made the earlier 'narrative' volumes seem out of date by the
time the later volumes were being written and sent to the publisher.

I think unless we define very closely what we are trying to achieve through
this book, the course could very easily be dictated to by the contributions
offered, and you would find we had an eight or ten volume bible on our
hands, something that could never be printed, never be kept up to date, and
like my beloved Cambridge Histories, become treasured purely as a magnum
opus, rather than for the information contained within it.

Of course, that is merely an argument for keeping the whole thing online.

Where is George Mowat Brown? Doesn't he know a thing or two about this?

P

[geo]

Originally Posted by Peter Grace

Some further thoughts.
Where is George Mowat Brown? Doesn't he know a thing or two about this?
P

Well, Peter, as you mention it, it was I who seemed to stir Ozymandias with my cautionary observations. These were not intended to be particularly negative, purely cautionary and based upon once being an editor for a London and Vienna publisher (nothing to do with cars!) and having written and researched two car-based books myself. To address some of the points made:

Originally Posted by Peter Grace

The two largest 'internal costs' are going to be the editor's time and the
typesetting (an ancient term.)
P

These are two of the largest pre-production costs and one should not overlook the enormity of the task

Originally Posted by Peter Grace

Like a village cookbook, everyone can contribute a section and therefore the 'writing' part can be divy'd up easily.
P

True, but if it is to flow and be a somewhat better read than the aforementioned cookbook, much work is required by a single person. When writing any academic or purely factual book, most writers realize that they are working for a pittance (calculated on a rate per hour), but are happy to undertake this task, however, proper proof-reading and editing requires proper payment.

Originally Posted by Peter Grace

I am happy to contribute to the design of it, . . . subject to an agreed brief and approvals process (we do not
want this run by committee, let alone a forum committee.)
P

A generous offer indeed as establishing the pagination, size and where photographs are to appear and so on takes an age — would you also expect to improve any images that are used? To my mind your caveat about an agreed brief is worth noting — without your request being met, the design and editing tasks would be impossible unless one was happy with it appearing in the manner of a dog's breakfast!

Originally Posted by Peter Grace

But I can see endless changing and arguing over of millions of facts,
grammar, and most frightening of all, opinion.
P

The advantage of writing or editing for a recognized publisher is that nearly every one has a rigid house style, so the grammar and spelling simply conforms to that: it is the writer, in connexion (or should you prefer connection?) with the editor who has to establish an equally rigid protocol for dealing with such issues.

Originally Posted by Peter Grace

Kevin is our resident expert on the pitfalls of personal opinion, as the
founder of BEEF.
P

Handing a bit of a poison chalice to Kevin to my mind!

Originally Posted by Peter Grace

And yet, what would be the point of a Bristol book that did not offer a
point of view?
P

Little writing does not offer an opinion, the trouble with the committee job is that it is rarely a consistent and coherent point of view.

Originally Posted by Peter Grace

investigate writing and editing it online, like Wikipedia, with a similar
approvals process. And once 'finished' then look to publish it the old
fashioned way.
P

An interesting idea to investigate, but I do have to say that wearing another hat that involves me in examining research degrees and the like, the much-quoted example of Wikipedia in reality leaves a lot to be desired — when one gets down to fine detail, it is a pretty unreliable source and presents much plagiarism.

Originally Posted by ozy

It always amazes me that when topics of this type are floated on many fora, there is always an abundance of armchair experts ready to postulate reasons why 'it can't be done' or 'it would be too difficult'. Will anyone shout up with a can do attitude here I wonder?

Sorry if I am missing the irony of using the title of Shelley’s Sonnet about hubris, but I feel that in your enthusiasm, you are overlooking some of the hurdles.

Originally Posted by ozy

I would love to see an erudite, up to date book on the Bristol marque . . . Far better a print on demand web based offering than nothing at all

Ah, I fear this is where we would not agree, whilst I should strongly agree with the idea of such a book being erudite and up-to-date, I find it hard to envisage that this would be so with this committee approach.

[Kevin H]

I see my attempts to divert this discussion to the new thread titled "Our New Bristol Publication" have been well and truly ignored

Speaking as another armchair postulator (or should that be postulater?), I believe it would be foolish to go into such a project without identifying the obstacles and work out ways to overcome them. A gung ho approach to a colaborative project rarely results in a happy ending.

One thing we do not need, IMHO, is another LJKS or another book like those he has written. I wouldn't be without his books, I think they are great, but they are like story books and are not much use to people who are wanting to know what to look our for when buying a Bristol, or want to service or restore one. That is where there is a gap in the market. A Haynes manual for the Bristol car range.

Opinion comes into play in areas such as "how to" and "what products to use", and no doubt a few other areas, such as modifications!

For example, the way I remove the bushes from the wishbones on my 411 front suspension is very different from the way suggested by Bristol Cars Services, but it is still a valid method, (and in my opinion much safer).

However, this need not be a huge problem - simply offer all credible opinions on how to tackle a job or what products to use, equivalent parts etc.

This is where we can add value, rather than regurgitating 'history' which we may never be able to verify.

As for the legal and IP issues, I believe we have enough lawyers among us to provide guidance and maybe some documentation. The main objection would of course come from The Company, on the basis that it could detract from their servicing, repair and restoration business, although I personally believe this would be a rather short sighted view.

[Peter Grace]

Sorry George, it was the 'Geo' signature that threw me. Perhaps you have been
calling yourself that for a while, and I did not pick it up.

My 'subject to an agreed brief' is an advertising loophole of sorts that
allows me to back out when the going gets too tough.

I have produced magazines, but not books, although the designers I work with
have done so.

Once a template is agreed to, flowing text and images is not as hard as it
sounds. For a very, very beautiful book, an enormous amount of pickiness is
needed, and this adds time and money. Especially if you get supplied
inferior photos and the like. No one would want to take that on as an unpaid
job, unless of course you knew the book would be printed beautifully
(expensively).

Which is why we need to establish just 'how big' this book might be, and why
I made reference to an encyclopedia like Professor Bury's.

I don't entirely agree with you on the idea of contributions. We have some
very able writers among us. Some are pedants, others polemists. Thor is an
engineer by training, Claude an historian. There is no reason an essay on
the BMW legacy can't sit side by side with a discussion on how to pull apart
an engine. Moreover, a contribution by Mr Crook might end up the most
valuable part of the book, but might not fit with one that had been
intended, say, to be a manual on restoration. I suppose it's a question of
when to stop.

I hope the 'poisoned chalice' comment was in jest, I certainly meant no more
than to point out how easy it seems to be in the Bristol world to get
people's backs up. You know I have nothing but reverence for our esteemed
BEEF founder.

In short, there is no way, in my opinion, that this suggested book would not
be big and painful to produce. That in no way should deter us from
considering or attempting it.

But as my escape exit 'subject to an agreed brief' suggests, I can see that
a badly scoped book could take years to finish and destroy a lot of online
friendships.

The funniest, and most unintended, product of the internet world is of
course a complete disregard for loyalty. You can commit to something online,
and then completely, utterly, snark-like, vanish away. It might be something
worth factoring in when we attempt to write a book with online authors.


Peter

[Kevin Howard]

I have just changed this thread title to reflect the content and moved the original posts about "An Illustrated History" to a new thread titled "An Illustrated History (the original book)".

On the topic of how to facilitate the new book project on-line, it would be very easy (10 minute job) to setup some additional forums and sub forums on this site with access limited to those involved in the project. Or a document repository could be set up like the Resources section of this site, again with appropriate access restrictions. I know this differs slightly from a true wiki, but it would be much easier than setting up something from scratch.

However, either way I would be happy to host it.

Kevin

[TLF799R]

Hi All (By the way Claude, yes there are ladies on the forum, amazing though it may seem!),

Without meaning to sound all doom and gloom, having gone through the process of writing (a truly fabulous, LOL) book, then the painful process of having it professionally edited I have to agree with George. Do not underestimate the difficulty of making such a book flow.

My editor moved sections round, put ruthless red lines through (very interesting) bits of waffle and generally savaged my beloved manuscript. The end result though is a really tightly written book which (dare I say it)got excellent reviews. Without her it wouldn't have been the professional product it became.

If you use multiple authors you are in great danger of publishing a bundle of articles all expressing different opinions which, although all valid, are of no real help to anyone.

Already you can see the different views on what such a book should be - from workshop manual to a history through the eyes of Tony Crook.

It seems to me that we have loads of latent talent here dying to write Bristol material so why on earth is the BOC bulletin editor stuggling to get contributions? We've already got an excellent outlet in a quality format for these articles let's get some of these ideas on paper and published in the bulletin at no cost to anyone!

Or have I missed some unspoken barrier here...?

Philippa

[Claude]

Ladies and gentlemen,

I have published books.

In briefly responding to George, the power of POD is the fact that the book can be endlessly improved at zero cost. Just make the changes, change the version number, output to PDF, upload and the corrections are done. The Internet changes the fundamentals of the world. If you doubt this, have a talk with Hillary Clinton who got flattened by an unknown rookie who did understand the internet and raised more money for his presidential campaign than anyone in history.

POD does not produce poor quality, it just permits poor quality to get to market. If Bristol enthusiasts were sub-literate goons of the sort that populate some hot-rod web sites, I would never have ventured such a proposal. However, the BEEF & BOC level of commentary over the years has been outstanding, and except for the occasional bear-baiting of our esteemed patron, consistent good manners, high regard, and excellent writing exhibiting a superior level of education and worldly experience, suggests we have a most capable team.

Brilliant editors are essential in the old world of print runs because the outlay was in five figures and the book run in the thousands. You get one bite at the apple. Not so with POD. It really is a different world, and the hardest group to convince are people who have published a book the old way.

With POD the readers are the editors, and the book a work in progress.

Our objective is to get solid information down in print. It is not to produce a cocktail table book, or a masterwork. We are not seeking to make a profit, so if it has useful information it will sell. If we keep the process open, over time it will get better, indeed if we want a model, look how many variations there are now of the open source operating system based on Linux. The same can happen with such a book.


But enough cheerleading.

Here is my proposed recommendation:

Ownership: It costs NZ $160 to incorporate in New Zealand, can be done on line. Or, a non-profit charitable trust can be incorporated for free in NZ. Incorporation seems to be more expensive in the USA, but I’m open to suggestions of other countries deemed appropriate – probably best to avoid England however. Key is to have a limited liability ownership far away from grumpy British lawyers. Then price the book at cost, with zero assets held by the corporation. One may consider as a possible option not to assert copyright but instead release the book into the public domain… makes it fairly hard to sue for damages.

Title: The Bristol Car Owners Book

Author: Bristol Enthusiasts

Pages 250 (if we choose to use http://www.createspace.com/Products/...jsp?ref=221263 250 is their current maximum)

Size: 8x10 (fits both letter and A4 packaging)

Two editions: One full colour, the other with all images converted to B&W

Software to create: Adobe Creative Suite (2 or 3).

Subsidiary books: For each model, a subsidiary book that contains the information peculiar to that model. These will come over time.

Template: Supplied by Claude unless someone else has a good template. As an example of its appearance, I attach a pdf sample.

Primary Font: Garamond Premium Pro 10 pt (or larger if Bristol Enthusiasts prefer Oxleys larger typestyle).

Caption Font: Gill Sans MT 9 pt

Photographs 300 dpi, cmyk, released into the public domain.

Purpose: To capture knowledge an owner of a Bristol car needs to know in order to purchase, operate, maintain, restore and appreciate.

Format:

- Buying. This describes each model or sub-model (such as 409 M2) starting with the 400 and going up to the latest Bristol. Photograph for each model front, side, back, angle, engine, cockpit. Things buyers need to look for, what to expect, costs, etc. Sales pitch: It's not about money (you will lose), it's about owning a piece of history, and leaving it in better condition than you bought it. How’s the line go? You don’t buy a Bristol; you borrow it from the next generation.

- Subset. It would be delightful to get the anecdotal stories of the evolution of the cars. For example, Elliot Gant’s insisting on a different steering wheel and side mould treatment on his LHD 410 that seems to have influenced the 411. I got the story from both Elliot and Brian Marelli. Usually these work best in text boxes.

- Operating. Both dream stories of great drives (buyers need this stuff) and practical information, like roads that have the finest stops for food and beverage.

- Maintenance. Not just oil changes, but what needs to be done to keep a car as a rolling restoration. This is where we seek to pick the brains of every owner, BCC, SL-J, and any other expert out there. Chapters for each major part of the car. Agreement that alternative methods that work will be included.

- Restoration. What's involved in taking a car down to bits and redoing it. All the answers on paint, cross referencing taillights and other bits. How to rebuild parts that can’t be sourced new. A directory of experts around the world who can remake old stock. Probably pick two cars, a 6 cyl (403 would be my nomination) and a 411. Define different standards for a drivers-car vs Pebble Beach wallet buster.

Who to contact. This eventually becomes a historical document, as it will change over time, but the old names become important.

The Patron. If he cooperates, it would be kind to include a chapter in which we invite Mr. Crook to write his own history. No editing, no comments, Kevin to bite lip and say nothing. From a historical point of view, how a man writes his history is as important as “the truth”. It gives us insight into how the world looks from the top. Elsewhere in the book, contrary evidence may be placed, which will no doubt intrigue the reader.

The Clubs. Honouring the leaders is important. Names, cars, actions. When they are gone, the next generation of car stewards won’t know what happened unless it is documented.

Famous cars. If a car has a famous history (meaning we know who owned it and they were not boring grey old sots), this adds something. Likewise, the few cars, such as the surviving LHD cars. Brian Flegg’s collection needs a mention.

Hierarchy:

The Book Committee – a governance group that sits at the top, and resolves difficulties. Governance does not mean Management. The Editor is the Chief Executive Officer, the committee shall not micro-manage.

Editor – The person who agrees to coordinate the book. The editor makes all preliminary decisions, but the committee makes sure the editor is doing a great job. The editor needs to be fairly good with words, and to instruct people on how to write. I recommend buying a copy of The Golden Book on Writing. Published in 1923, at 67 pages, it remains the most useful book on how to communicate clearly with impact. Google it.

The Editor's "kitchen cabinet" (an American presidential term - google it). A group of people the editor selects to reality check, get feedback and unvarnished opinions (no thin skins allowed). Folks may volunteer, but the editor gets to pick. I'm happy to volunteer here.

Layout - the person who agrees to receive all chapters and convert them into InDesign. Note, there is no such thing as typesetting anymore. You type in Word (which has a better spelling and grammar checker). The text is lifted out, blocked and immediately it converts into the standard format for the book (called paragraph styles). Once the template is set up, it’s fairly easy, especially if text flows from one page to another. This is often best done by someone skilled in layout and design.

Indexer – this is a bit of an art. It’s sort of easy to index in InDesign but the key is to decide what to index. This needs someone with an engineering background usually.

Author – There will be many authors, and my recommendation is that if they are named, it is only on the acknowledgement page. All writing will be released into the public domain, copy left or granted to the non-profit corporation. No prima donnas.

Photographers – Ditto. Now digital cameras have come of age, and car photography is no longer the domain of the few. Just remember to take car pics just after dawn or at sunset when the light is yellow.

So, we need names:

Committee
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.

Editor
1.

Layout
1.

Indexer
1.

Author
Many

Respectfully submitted.

Claude

[Claude]

Originally Posted by TLF799R

It seems to me that we have loads of latent talent here dying to write Bristol material so why on earth is the BOC bulletin editor stuggling to get contributions? We've already got an excellent outlet in a quality format for these articles let's get some of these ideas on paper and published in the bulletin at no cost to anyone!

Or have I missed some unspoken barrier here...?

Philippa

Hello Phillippa,

I would not see an unspoken barrier but a different purpose, a different process, and a different membership. The BOC is a British Club that welcomes overseas members, but eventually they grow tired of renewing a membership and drift away. However, Kevin's forum keeps them involved, it is entertaining, is international because the internet conquors the tyranny of distance, and it lacks the politics that clubs inherently take on.

If the BOC forum wishes to publish the on-going work, wonderful. But if the BOC becomes the official body, then we have risk, risk assessment, politics and a host of distractions from something singular in its goal. Better to set up something independent, but keep it open-source, meaning the Club may print whatever they want from the book process.

Cheers
Claude

[Kevin H]

Claude,

That's a great framework to get things going.

Should we spread the word a bit more widely, because I am sure that there are plenty of other Bristol owners (other than the 68 members who have joined BristolCars.info to date) who may be able and willing to contribute, but do not yet know about the existence of this site and therefore are oblivious to this discussion.

Regards,
Kevin

[Nick Challacombe]

I thought that was precisely what you did not what!

"A creaky didatic prose complete with inaccuracies"

At least he was passionate about Bristol Cars.

Peg Leg

[Kevin Howard]

Originally Posted by Nick Challacombe

I thought that was precisely what you did not what!

"A creaky didatic prose complete with inaccuracies"

At least he was passionate about Bristol Cars.

Peg Leg

It will have the elements that interest me - the Buyers Guide, "how to service and fix" and "where to get". I'll just ignore the potentially non factual stuff

However, Claude may be right, newcomers to the marque may need a bit of that to get them hooked. After all it was only after reading A Private Car that I had the urge to buy a Bristol.

Kevin

[Nick Challacombe]

For my half penny's worth, it would be fantastic if a book were written on
the Bristol
Car Company through the eyes of Tony Crook.
This I believe would be a totally different book to that proposed as I think
that there is
so much myth behind the Marque that he could if he wanted settle once and
for all.
Even so if that were not possible his account would be very interesting,
even his life story.

That would not cut across any other publication.

Phillipa, I wondered when you would put you Zagato head above the parapet
after the
Gentleman remark, also one of my local member Gwyneth Hogger with her 401
would
have bridled at that one.

Peg Leg
Nick 407 6028

[Kevin Howard]

Off topic posts (including one of my own) which discuss the site functionality have been moved to this thread http://www.bristolcars.info/forums/showthread.php?t=81 in the "About This Site" forum.