Toby Silverton interview in Octane

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted by John Keighley

Yes, possibly.
Good to see that Bristol Cars is likely to survive for the interim. The inevitable succession of custodianship has happened and it's reassuring (from my point of view anyway) that the aviation links continue (Silverton's background).

John,
Why do you (or anyone else) find aviation "links" reassuring?

Kevin

[John Keighley]

Kevin,
I have pretty well been in and around aviation all my life. Cockpit and instrument panel layouts are a great source of interest. When an aircraft manufacturer then turns to producing cars and we look at their approach to driver ergonomics - how they have designed the controls, there are alway unique ideas (some may say quirky) incorporated into the design. Saab are another example with driver layout influenced by their aircraft design. I had a couple of Saabs over the years the last being the 900 Aero Turbo in the early 90s. Apart from horrendous servicing costs it was a delightful car. Take the switch gear and the ignition key in the floor between the two front seats. To the unitiated, this may be a silly place but in the dark, your left hand can find it instantly. Everything was within easy reach with space utilised well and logically. Generally in these cars, ergonomics were excellent and some of this would have to have links to their aviation heritage.
Bristol also has this commonality. Switchgear is placed to be easily located without having to look. The instrumentation in the binnacle (404-Blenheim) and controls design in earlier cars has aviation influences.
This can't be a bad thing. What I'm saying is the links can't hurt and are probably a positive for BCL's image as an individual car manufacturer.
Aerodynamics has always played a part in design of Bristols to make them as efficient as possible.
A week ago I met a fellow who grew up in Bristol and he told me that as a boy, he used to watch Bristols being tested on the Filton runway.We've all seen photos of some of the cars with tufts of wool attached to the external surfaces to assist in analysis of aerodynamics on these cars being tested in that very same place. It's nice to see that there's some links to aviation still but I don't expect everyone to necessarily see it from this point of view. I wouldn't be in the least surprised if Silverton uses his aviation background to contribute in some way to the design and development of future Bristol cars.
John K.

[Jervaulx]

Isn't Toby Silverton involved in aircraft parts and not aircraft design? I
also do not see the connection. Even if he owned an aircraft design
company, i'm still not sure what that has to do with making Bristol any more
or less successful as a car company, it didn't with Saab.

I personally have never had an issue finding something in the dark, as it is
only one of a few things you want anyway. You can usually find them without
looking as it is second nature. Of course you could always switch the
overhead light on or leave the door ajar.

I was never a fan of the ignition key in the floor as it attracted all kinds
of dirt into the lock, plus most new cars do not actually have keys anymore.
Interiors on modern cars are generally well lit.

Andrew

[jimfoz]

Originally Posted by Jervaulx

Isn't Toby Silverton involved in aircraft parts and not aircraft design? I
also do not see the connection. Even if he owned an aircraft design
company, i'm still not sure what that has to do with making Bristol any more
or less successful as a car company, it didn't with Saab.



Andrew

Isn't it the perceived idea that because it has an aircraft connection then it is going to be built to aircraft standards (not break down/fall apart as much). Also the design will follow aircraft principles (clear, easy to find switches, good visability, ventilation etc). It may be felt that because there is still an aircraft connection, these principles will continue at the car company where some of the employees (notably Sid Lovesy) originally started their careers designing bits for Bristol Aircraft.

[Rubbond]

Ouch!
Just wanted to make it clear that it wasn't me that sent the message below!
I can be grumpy, but not that grumpy!
By chance my wife has a Saab 900, so I do agree that some of the safety
features are fairly stupid - like having to engage reverse gear to remove
the ignition key. There was also something silly about how or when to
operate the electric roof.
Thanks again to whomever sent the link to Wikipedia on the Bristol aircraft.
I didn't realise that I had ever flown in a 'plane that was designed during
the 2nd World War. But it did feel like it!
Best regards,
The other Andrew.

[pasini s]

Hello John and Kevin,

you are absolutely right about the importance of driver ergonomics and how
much the aviation research means to improve on this important side of active
safety. Sadly, modern avionics are not so perfect (I always speak strictly
from the ophthalmic/visual perception point of view, of course), but
automotive instruments worsened dramatically in the last few years, many of
the so-called 'designers' ignoring the fundamental laws (Warrick etc.)

As this is one of my fields of research, a few years ago I was invited in
Detroit for a congress and this is one of the papers I presented there:

http://www.stefanopasini.it/Oculisti...peedometer.htm

Maybe you would like to browse it and the Power Point presentation that
went with it.

I must say that classic British instruments are among the best in terms of
design, especially in their classic layout of black dial/white numbers and
hands. Bristols are very good, but IMHO the switchgear of my 409 is not so
effective as too many of its switches are out of my main visual field and
often have confusing labeling. The 409's main instruments and controls are
designed according to every good stereotype, though, and thus they are all
easy to use and never cause a potentially dangerous distraction.

Cheers

Stefano

[Peter.Kent]

Surely, the good news is that he is an interested chap with some engineering background ... not a 20 something yr old oligarch trying to make a quick buck. As for ergonomics ... lovely though my 412 may be there are some very quaint ergonomics. Not least of these is the wiper control. I wonder if a 747 has anything so hideous? P

[John Keighley]

Andrew,
I agree that it won't necessarily make them any more or less successful but it does contribute to making them a little different from other manufacturers. Components are different to design, yes, but there has always been some influence translated from aviation to motoring and it would not be in the least bit surprising that ideas continue to do this. Just because you're in the parts manufacturing/supply line doesn't mean that you're devoid of design knowledge. You have to be conversant with design in order to develop or supply the appropriate equipment.
Dirt in a Saab ignition lock? Never heard of it! I cleaned mine. I think there are a thousand reasons why Saab eventually failed but I'll bet that one of them had something to do with management.

[TBC]

is it my imagination or is this discussion concerning Toby and his 'other business interests' only a reflection of BCL's history since 1971 as since that date the company was owned, and one would imagine steered in all things, including design, by a car salesman?

If memory serves Tony Crook never worked for Bristol Aircraft?

He had been a pilot, and may well retain a PPL, he did not, as far as I am aware, ever build or design aircraft.

[TLF799R]

Ouch!

I suspect it is possible that those offering such detailed views of Mr
Silverton's qualifications did not attend the Fighter lecture. His love and
deep knowledge of engineering issues shone through.

Whatever previous owners may or may not have been that was no mere car
salesman!!

Philippa

[lansdownplace]

Well said Philippa. For those who didn't get to the lecture, the Heritage trust can supply a DVD for a modest fee. All arguments will be blown out of water.

As an aside I spent a couple of hours with Toby looking at a Fighter whilst he explained, amongst other aerodynamic issues, exactly how the airflow management through the engine bay facilitated cooling but then fed back out through the side vents, was drag neutral and reattached the turbulent airflow generated by the front wheels to the sides of the car in a laminar flow for greater high speed stability and lower drag. Where did that idea come from? The Mustang P51. In fact laminar airflow application was a big first for that plane and was the reason it was such a success. I am pretty sure Toby didn't build or design the P51, but that doesn't prevent him from knowing or applying the techniques used.

There are a number of other examples that you can point to. On the Blenheim there is a splitter bar in the radiator intake, whilst it looks like a styling piece but it is there as an aerodynamic foil to progressively disrupt airfow as speed increases (no effect below 60/70mph) to reduce the amount of air being drawn into the engine bay with all the issues that can create. Bristol achieve this with a simple static part, and that is what true engineering is all about.

Paul

[mrbennetts]

Whatever previous owners may or may not have been that was no mere car
salesman!!

Philippa[/quote]

Oh dear, now I have to join in ! I hope, and expect, Philippa, that you were not inferring that Mr Crook was a "mere car salesman".........He may have had his idiosyncratic methods, but he did run a successful company for very many years, and without him we wouldn't even be on this board, let alone be able to admire the wonderful machines he and his staff made, and which Mr Silverton continues to improve.

Maybe I mis-read your comment, in which case, do please accept my apologies. I usually agree with all your comments ! Stephen B.

[kevin.pippard]

Hello,
I do not own a Bristol but have admired them for many years. I note the references to the aircraft heritage and this has prompted me to recommend a recent book by an Aussie writer. The title is "Charles Kingsford Smith and those magnificent men". Although Kingsford Smith is the focus of the book many other pioneer airmen certainly get more than an honourable mention. There is also plenty of detail on the mechanical and engineering (and sheer good luck) that allowed those early machines to fly.

Peter FitzSimons 2009, Harper and Collins ISBN 978 0 7322 8487 9.

Regards to all,
Kev P

[TLF799R]

Andrew,

It was the previous poster, not me, who used the car salesman tag. So, no
we are still in perfect harmony! LOL

Philippa

[browning l]

Anyone out there able to scan the "CAR" article on Mr. Syd Lovesey, Bristol Patchway, and email it to me?