Bristol alternatives.

[Jervaulx]

(Quote: Kevin Howard)
However, rather than laziness this may have been down to economics. My guess
is that the company was in terminal decline by the time Mr Silverton came
along.
(End Quote)

I think the Bristol Fighter sends out a good signal for the future of the
company under Mr Silverton's stewardship.

(Quote: Kevin Howard)
As for whether things like air con and electric rear windows matter, it all
depends upon on how you use the car. If you keep your car under wraps in a
dehumidified garage and drive it only on sunny Sundays then of course it
doesn't matter and you should probably strive for originality. But if you
want to use a classic car as a daily driver then a few niceties become more
important.
(End Quote)

Don't forget, Bristol Cars regularly comment that their cars are designed
for daily usage, so really these things should be standard fitment.

Andrew

______________________
PREVIOUS MESSAGE FROM: Jervaulx

(Quote: rubbond)

On the other subjects, my goodness. Who really could care a sh*t about
electric rear windows? Or am I mad?

(End Quote)

Basically, if you have front electric windows, you should have the rear
ones
electric also. It also helps older and more infirm passengers in the rear
to open the window when they find it difficult to reach and open the
manual
mechanism. Also, in a prestige car you should open the window in a more
gentlemanly manner by pressing a switch by slight of hand rather than if
you
were in a £7000 car. I don't agree with excuses of unreliability. When
you
make cars costing £150,000 and above, you find a reliable mechanism and
you
fit it. Excuses smacks of laziness to develop and progress and to make
the
car a better and more passenger friendly car. I also believe this has
some
truth with the lack of safety features which have been proven,
overwhelmingly to save many lives.

Having said that, i am a fan of the current models from Bristol and would
recommend them.

Andrew

[Jervaulx]

A tip to help prevent windows steaming up which works on bathrooms mirrors.
Take a soft dry cloth, squirt washing up liquid on it and wipe over the
windscreen and/or side windows. Then take another soft dry cloth and buff
it off. This should stop the misting as it really does work on bathroom
mirrors.

Andrew

[jimfoz]

[quote=TLF799R;498]What is it with you boys - you claim to love the cars then all you do is run them down. If so much is wrong with them why have one???

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the Fighter have a specially developed air conditioning system, designed for the car at great cost?

It would have presumably been much easier, as other "supercars" do, to pinch theirs from cheap mass produced cars but Bristol didn't do that. They wanted to make their car smaller and lighter so they designed their own!

How can you possibly call that lazy???

When I win the lottery I am straight off to Kensington to order my new Bristol!






Lets not forget that if you have any spare pennies after forking out for your new Bristol and you don't like the dashboard, you can possibly instruct Bristol to arrange any bespoke upgrading of it. I remember seeing on these pages a Blenheim belonging to an owner that had a much better and tasteful interior upgrade utilising Rolls Royce eyeball vents and chrome switches and totally ditching the underdash chip-cutter ac. Would this upgrade have been done by Bristol or would someone else have done it??

[Markus Berzborn]

I don't quite get this.
Who needs to open rear windows anyway when you have air con? What for? To ask someone for the way because the driver himself does not speak English?

Regards,
Markus

[potential]

Originally Posted by potential

I've been considering alternatives which have some of the Bristol qualities and I'd welcome opinions from this group on their suitability;

The precise mechanism for opening the rear windows is quite low on my list of priorities when choosing a car and probably below colour. Please feel free to suggest cars with any form of window operation (including hamster) or indeed fixed rear windows.

[Bellerophon]

It was claimed that the aerodynes were pressurised in order to keep the
draughts out, hence some difficulty in closing the doors with the windows shut,
however, Tony Crook always said that the car should be driven with a rear
quarter light open, and this is what I tend to do.
Regards.
Bellerophon

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted by TLF799R

What is it with you boys - you claim to love the cars then all you do is run them down.

It's not blind love!

Originally Posted by TLF799R

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the Fighter have a specially developed air conditioning system, designed for the car at great cost?

I don't know if you are right or wrong, but who was talking about the Fighter? My comments specifically mentioned V8 Bristols.

Originally Posted by TLF799R

It would have presumably been much easier, as other "supercars" do, to pinch theirs from cheap mass produced cars but Bristol didn't do that. They wanted to make their car smaller and lighter so they designed their own!

How do you know it's not straight out of the Viper?

Isn't that where the chassis came from?

[Jervaulx]

Philippa, we were talking generally about the main model the Blenheim 3 and
not the Fighter which sets a good future for the company.

As far as safety, until the cars go through Euro NCap tests then your views
of the safety record is not viable. Bristol cars are rare as hens teeth and
so the odds of them being in severe crashes is a lot less than a higher
production model.

Also, are you really saying that because some of us have made a critcism of
certain models, then we should go elsewhere? Anybody who really cares about
a marque will make criticsm and on this occasion, it is genuine and heart
felt and not done for the sake of being nasty. Other marques face criticism
from their customers and enthusiasts all the time, they listen and if there
is a need they will act on it.

Andrew

[Markus Berzborn]

Originally Posted by Kevin Howard

How do you know it's not straight out of the Viper?

Isn't that where the chassis came from?

The chassis? You probably mean the engine.

Regards,
Markus

[TLF799R]

It's not blind love!

But it seems to be rather misinformed...

I don't know if you are right or wrong, but who was talking about the Fighter? My comments specifically mentioned V8 Bristols.

I think your original comment was "When you make cars costing £150,000 and above, you find a reliable mechanism and you fit it. Excuses smacks of laziness to develop and progress and to make the car a better and more passenger friendly car."

If you check your facts you will find that the Blenheim and the 411 series 6 both have integrated air conditioning behind the dash BUT still maintain the original Bristol theory of keeping air conditioning and fresh air supply separate, which means that "fresh" air is exactly what you get rather than air passed through the heater matrix which is heated even when the heater is switched off (due to residual heat) by probably at least 5 degrees.

It seems rather against you "lazy theory" to me. You can't tell me that it is easier to produce your own system rather than use a cheap one off a run of the mill production car?

Perhaps you need to become more familiar with the dreaded V8s...

How do you know it's not straight out of the Viper?
I'm afraid I've checked my facts and it is a specially developed computerised system which is as up to the minute as you can get!

Isn't that where the chassis came from?
Sorry Kevin but the chassis has been no where near a Viper. I've driven one and also been in a Fighter and there is no comparison. The chassis is a completely modern one of aluminium and high strength steel with integral race car roll over bars built specially for the Fighter.

I don't mind considered comment about Bristols but I hate it when it is based on misinformation and "urban myth"!

Philippa

[TLF799R]

Hi Andrew,

As far as safety, until the cars go through Euro NCap tests then your views of the safety record is not viable. Bristol cars are rare as hens teeth and so the odds of them being in severe crashes is a lot less than a higher production model.

Sorry if my views are not as valid as the rest of yours...!

My view, unlike yours, is based among other things on informed comment from a Blenheim owner I met at the factory when picking up our car. He had been in a high speed 8 car motorway pile up where every other car had air bags (some as many as 7).

He was the only driver who emerged unscathed. What the government tests fail to take into account is that should you be involved in a multiple impact your airbags have been and gone once the first car has hit you. You are then presumably sitting in a car designed to protect you through the air bags that doesn't then have them as car number two hits you!

He walked away from the accident thanks to the strength in the Bristol chassis. Of the other people in the accident some were still in hospital 1 month later presumably collecting the insurance money from their write offs when he was collecting his repaired car from the factory.

I would much rather rely on the design of a car to save me than some kind of "GCSEs for cars" created by a government who you all seem to have very little faith in the rest of the time!

Also, are you really saying that because some of us have made a critcism of certain models, then we should go elsewhere? Anybody who really cares about a marque will make criticsm and on this occasion, it is genuine and heart felt and not done for the sake of being nasty. Other marques face criticism from their customers and enthusiasts all the time, they listen and if there is a need they will act on it.

Andrew

I don't mind informed comment about the cars as I said to Kevin, I just feel it should be exactly that - informed!

Philippa

[406Special]

Philippa,

I agree that the Fighter has a unique chassis and probably may have a
uniquely configured air con system , but I suspect the air con will be based
around off the shelf components matched to suit the requirements of the
Fighter, not bespoke down to the ECU and sub components. That would be
farcical economically and something simply not worth doing.

Most large scale auto manufacturers use common components configured to
their specific requirements but often shared amongst several brands/marques.
A classic example (not air con) is the half shaft (drive shaft) off a
Porsche 928. It is more than £450 off the shelf from Porsche and is a
direct swap for the same item used on a Ford Granada of the same era (price
£195). All made by GKN. Similarly air-con units largely come from 3-4
global suppliers. Bosch supplies so much to the auto industry one has to
ask the question, what apart from body and chassis design do the car makers
actually do (lots really). Even engines and gearboxes are routinely shared
these days (Borg Warner / Getrag / etc, or Alfa/Fiat/Vauxhall/Saab with
diesels or even BMW Mini/Peugeot/Citroen diesels to name a few). Everything
from ABS and braking systems to other sub-systems are designed and produced
by third parties. Indeed it is a strength that such outsourcing of common
systems is used, especially for Bristol - makes it better for us who make
the time and effort to keep them going. My 406 will have a latest model
Dana Spicer rear axle and modern front disc calipers, plus other nice shiny
3rd party stuff added for convenience and ease of maintenance - including a
fully integrated off the shelf air con unit.

As to crash worthiness it is of great importance that energy is absorbed by
the structure as much as possible instead of the people inside. Rather than
blame the lack of available airbags (designed to help keep moving body parts
from too much acceleration and impact damage), the issue you raise about a
multiple car pile up is more related to the subsequent lack of impact
(energy) absorption by an already crashed car by another impact. This is a
catch 22 and unfortunate. Although having said that the basic cell
structure of most moderns remains pretty strong even after front and rear
impact absorption. Fewer deaths occur due to high speed (30-50mph) impact
than say 20-30 years ago (pro-rata). Even better still are injuries due to
impact of body parts inside the car.

The Bristol (V8's) has excellent rear impact absorption (relatively weak
(soft) structure) attached to a solid structure and similarly same at front
above chassis line and before engine. Side impact is good too as long as
the impact is below knee height until it hits the inner chassis rails. In
any event, the guy in the heavier object always comes off (almost always)
better than the guy in the smaller one. A V8 Bristol weighs in at 1700kgs
about the same as a modern BMW 5 series or smaller 7 series.

[Jervaulx]

Philippa your comment of the guy surviving the crash is not a scientific one
and is therefore not viable as the Blenheim was not in the same posotion as
all the cars involved. The official tests also show how the car deforms in
a crash dissapaiting the energy and how it handles impact (modern cars
deform whereas older cars didn't causing injuries to passengers) and where
the pedals go for example. Recent tests also found, if a small Renault
Modus was travelling at 30mph and a Mercedes E-class (W124) from the late
1980's pulled out and was hit side on, the Mercedes driver would likely be
killed. Whereas if the roles were reversed, the Renault driver would walk
away. Mercedes cars are known the world over for being some of the safest
and toughest cars in existence. I prefer proven science on a like for like
basis, rather than a guy i met happened to be ok in his car in 1 crash. Oh
and most crashes aren't multiple pile ups, they are single impact. Modern
crash zones are 'proven' by many reliable sources (not just government
tests) to save lives, ignorance doesn't!!

On the case of your argument of not needing an electric opener of the rear
window. What about on days when the air con isn't needed but the passenger
wants fresh air, are we to deny them because you don't see the need for it?
Manual openers are a poor mans way of opening the window and an
impossibility for many older generations who simply cannot reach across.

Andrew

[TLF799R]

Philippa your comment of the guy surviving the crash is not a scientific one and is therefore not viable as the Blenheim was not in the same posotion as all the cars involved.

I never claimed it was scientific, however, this doesn't meant it isn't valid (or viable as you call it). Surely anecdotal evidence is often the trigger for research that wouldn't have happened if no one had shared their practical experience?

Do you work for the road research lab (or whatever the EU say we can call it) by any chance????

On the case of your argument of not needing an electric opener of the rear window. What about on days when the air con isn't needed but the passenger wants fresh air, are we to deny them because you don't see the need for it? Manual openers are a poor mans way of opening the window and an impossibility for many older generations who simply cannot reach across.

Andrew, I'm afraid it wasn't me that said it wasn't needed. I'm all for allowing oldies air.

If you all drove 412s you wouldn't need it you could just drop the hood down! LOL

Philippa

[Jervaulx]

Sorry Philippa i thought it was you who said it, i'll smack myself on the
wrist very hard LOL. On the subject of a convertible, imagine an open top
Fighter, now there's a thought.....

Andrew

[TLF799R]

Originally Posted by Jervaulx

Sorry Philippa i thought it was you who said it, i'll smack myself on the
wrist very hard LOL. On the subject of a convertible, imagine an open top
Fighter, now there's a thought.....

Andrew

Or even a 412 with gull wing doors (Mr Silverton has dashed my hopes and told me it's not possible). Shame...

Philippa

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted by TLF799R

I think your original comment was "When you make cars costing £150,000 and above, you find a reliable mechanism and you fit it. Excuses smacks of laziness to develop and progress and to make the car a better and more passenger friendly car."

No Philippa, I did not say that, I think you will find it was Andrew (Jervaulx).

Originally Posted by TLF799R

If you check your facts you will find that the Blenheim and the 411 series 6 both have integrated air conditioning behind the dash ...

I don't know what a 411 series 6 is, but I specifically mentioned the Blenheim Series 2 (with it's "chip cutter" air con unit slung under the dash). The current Blenheim may well have integrated air conditioning, and it's wonderful that Bristol have finally caught up with the rest of the automotive industry. I dare say they used up all their stock of the old "chip cutters", (which probably haven't been manufactured since the 1970s).

Originally Posted by TLF799R

You can't tell me that it is easier to produce your own system rather than use a cheap one off a run of the mill production car?

No it's not easier. Hopefully Bristol weren't so stupid as to develop their own air con system when there are plenty of excellent ones available off the shelf. Car companies should stick to making cars and let air conditioning companies make air conditioning systems.

Originally Posted by TLF799R

Perhaps you need to become more familiar with the dreaded V8s...

It's a shame you dread the V8s. I think they are wonderful cars, I really like their lines, I'm even warming to the 412, depending on the colour - your's looks quite good. The V8 Bristol (at least up to the 411/412) are quite simple cars, easy to work on and solidly built in most areas, although there are one or two spots where a little more care and attention in manufacturing would have been nice (not unlike almost all cars).

Originally Posted by TLF799R

How do you know it's not straight out of the Viper?
I'm afraid I've checked my facts and it is a specially developed computerised system which is as up to the minute as you can get!

Hmm, that sounds like a bit of air from the heater matrix to me
How is the chassis "computerised" ?
What are the "facts" and how did you "check" them?

Originally Posted by TLF799R

Isn't that where the chassis came from?

Originally Posted by TLF799R

Sorry Kevin but the chassis has been no where near a Viper. I've driven one and also been in a Fighter and there is no comparison. The chassis is a completely modern one of aluminium and high strength steel with integral race car roll over bars built specially for the Fighter.

Many different models of the Viper have been produced - which one have you driven?

You say you have "been in a Fighter" - have you actually driven one, in comparable circumstances to the drive in the Viper? (just wondering how you compared the chassis of the two cars).

Originally Posted by TLF799R

I don't mind considered comment about Bristols but I hate it when it is based on misinformation and "urban myth"!

Ha ha, that's really quite funny, given the Bristol mythology.

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted by Markus Berzborn

The chassis? You probably mean the engine.

Regards,
Markus

No I did mean the chassis. Just thought I would throw that one out there and see what the reaction was

We all know the engine is a Viper engine, and presumably the transmission, but I assumed that Bristol made the chassis.

However, just last week I was talking to a guy who recently visited Chrysler in Detroit. He is doing some development work on another model of car to utilise the Viper engine so he had some meetings arranged with Chrysler people. They looked after him, picked him up from his hotel, took him out for lunch and gave him a tour of the Viper production plant. These guys were very forthcoming with information until he asked if the Bristol Fighter used the Viper chassis - "No comment" was the response.

Now if Bristol were not using the Viper chassis it would be very simple for the Chrysler guys to say that. But when anyone declines to comment when asked a simple yes/no question, that makes me suspicious.

Why would Bristol not use the Viper chassis? It's a great chassis, well proven and successful in racing versions of the Viper. It would also have saved them a fortune in development costs.

Has anyone ever seen a reasonably detailed description of the Fighter chassis?

[TLF799R]

For such an expert on Bristol I am surprised you are so unfamiliar with the 411 series 6???

I'm afraid I can see that I am wasting my time and that you are far happier living with your conspiracy theories. Nothing Bristol do will ever be good enough for you. If it comes out of another car it is lazy, if they make it themsleves they are stupid - they can't win!

Perhaps an open mind might help you get a more rounded view but I suspect anyone's else's information will never be rated as highly as your own in your mind.

Is there some kind of traumatic incident you had with Bristol that I'm unaware of? You never seem to be voicing these theories on any forum bar your own???

Philippa

[GBird]

I have read a number of times in historical blurb about Bristols that 'no driver has ever been killed in a Bristol' . I then read a year or two back that some bone parts were discovered by someone restoring a Bristol found in a barn and these included a bit if bone that was identified as human jaw. Does anyone have any recollection of this and what was the outcome?

George