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You just have to compare cars which are really comparable - such as different generations of a model line of the same company. Take the Mercedes E class, for example, which I am quite familiar with. A modern E class diesel is much more efficient than it predecessors from the seventies or even eighties and at the same time vastly superior in terms of performance, speed etc. On the other hand, fuel consumption has in fact developped into a kind of fetish for some people that really puts me off. Just as this CO2 nonsense. Kind regards, Markus |
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They have been offered for handicapped persons for many years now, and they work. Kind regards, Markus |
LJK Setright, Fuel consumption
Pleased to hear about your overdrive conversion. All cars in fact should
have that! My point was just weight increase over the years. 21 km per litre on diesel by the way sounds marvellous for a (relatively heavy) Saab. Are you sure? My wife has a petrol engined Saab 900, but I don't think gets better than 8 km per litre. With best regards, Andrew. |
LJK Setright, Fuel consumption
Andrew, I have had SAAB's for over 30 years up until now all petrol so yes
the fuel consumption was not marvelous and the further you go back with a SAAB the thicker the gauge of metal they used. However, the new one has a large amount of plastic parts including an under pan to help it slide through the air better, this the old models did not have. The consumption figures are accurate as I have the mpg permanently displayed on the dash, which is interesting when you go up or down a hill to see the changes, (the diesel is twice as good as the petrol) also tends to make you less heavy with ones right foot. My regards, Bellerophon |
LJK Setright, Fuel consumption
My Dear Chap surely you were thinking of as Alfa Romeo!
Dorien |
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That said, I was in the UK last week and hired a 2.0L VW Jetta diesel. I was astonished how little fuel it used and how much torque it had from about 1700 rpm. Made me wonder what the V10 Toerag must be like... Back to LJKS - has anyone ever read the book he wrote about wheels and tyres (or was it just about tyres?) PS. wearing my Admin hat - when replying by email, please take care to type your reply between the dashed lines as the original email requests and also do not edit the beginning or ending dashed lines in any way. I have just edited about half a dozen posts in this thread to remove the messy email artefacts which results when the second set of dashed lines are inadvertently edited. Thanks :) |
Well, fuel is more expensive in Germany than it is in the UK.
I just found the discussion a bit strange, given the subject of this forum. In the sense that people who are seriously concerned about fuel consumption would probably never even consider large capacity petrol engines as offered by Bristol. Kind regards, Markus |
LJK Setright
I find the fact that my 47 year old Bristol 407 still gets better fuel
consumption 19mpg than my friends Range Rover. Nothing seems to have progressed in V8s for 47 years. My diesel 270 Eclass though is very good, 42mpg or more on long runs. Fantastic I think, though I still love my Bristol, just wafts along at 60/70mph with the same comfort as my Merc, but no P/S,ABS,Aircon,decent ventilation and a little wind noise. Nick |
LJK Setright
I have to say that for me the most remarkable classic of all time is a good MKVI Bentley. They are absolutely silent at between 70-80, they are amongst the most comfortable cars of all time, the ride can be caught out, but is as good as today's best most of the time, the steering is light and very precise and they do 19 mpg at 75mph. I've owned over fifty cars including E Types, DB5s and just about anything else you can think of, but nothing quite matches R-R's best effort after the Ghost IMO. At 55 it does 22mpg.
My 400 is a little faster, a lot noisier and rather crude by comparison, though it does handle very well for such an old car. I had to fit a Brake Servo, an MGB clutch, a modern pre-engaged starter, an anti-roll bar, substantially re-jet the carburettors and ladle in several tons of insulation material to get noise levels low enough to stave of the divorce for a bit longer too. As I've said before LJKS was a very good, non technical writer who wasn't terribly concerned with the accuracy of his work. I have his "History of the World's Motorcycles" and a another book of re-gurgitated old wives tales about prominent Classics, I used to read his efforts in car magazine, I didn't care for his bias in Hi Fi World and I always used to blow mu stack at the mistakes. |
LJK Setright
A few years ago I had a Lincoln Town car as a rental (large) that
gave 27 mpg in moderate driving. EPA ratings for the similar Ford Crown Victoria and Mercury Grand Marquis are 15 city and 23 highway (mpg).. Pretty good for a 4061 lb car. |
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By the way, are we talking about US or UK gallons?
Regards, Markus |
LJK Setright
I find it a little worrying that people are able to remember the fuel
consumption of rental cars, and then several years ago. Last week I rented a Peugeot 107 (at least that was what I was told it was) on Malta. Small island, so small car. Having spent 2 days folding down the front seats up and down to get things into it (it had no boot to speak of), I only realised when filling up with petrol just before turning it in, that it actually had four doors (!), the rear doors closing right up against the rear windscreen Thankfully they do full service at Maltese filling stations, or likely I would never have found the filler cap, even in daylight. Another car I won't be buying. It had 5 gears but I didn't get out of 3rd. Oh and the fuel consumption - no idea. |
I only remember it because it I had a discussion with the hire car guy about it, there was a display telling me consumption that I spent three weeks watching slowly fall, and it was only a few months ago. It may be thirsty by UK standards, but it gas was still very cheap in California compared to here!
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LJK Setright
I completely rebuild my cars with meticulous attention to their
workings. This includes adjusting carburettors and ignition timing etc to perfection and applying modifications to achieve better temperature control and economy. Therefore fuel consumption for me is one indicator of my success or failure. Modern cars are different and my wife and I have just endured a long weekend in Picardy in the back of a six cylinder Subaru Outback with a small TV screen. This began by advertising the company and, because no one could fathom the satnav, went on to provide overall and instananeous fuel consumption. This being the least iritating display available unless we wanted to drive from Sturminster Newton to Portsmouth via Dover whilst located somewhere near Rheims. I have a friend with a BMW who's been unable to persuade his car that he's no longer on holiday in Spain! I hope this clarifies the situation, though I should add that any rear wheel steering in the Subaru was more advisory than mechanical. Ash |
Fuel Economy And Environmental Impact
Dear Forum,
My 1939 Jag burns 1 gallon of 92 octane petrol every 20 miles at a constant 2000 rpm (52 mph). Further, the vehicle produces a lot of NOX and a plethora of unburnt hydrocarbons - especially in the form of fuel vapour from the tank breather and atop the old Skinner's float bowls during a hot Aussie summer. Apart from the vehicle's inherent driving pleasure, I am not about to trade the clunker in on a newer/cleaner burning car or indeed, fit a catalystic converter or apply similar mods. The greenies reading this ramble will no doubt be in a mild state of apoplexy at this point, however, in my defence ,I make two important points: 1. The vehicle in question is lucky to travel over 5000mls in one year, and 2. Most of the car is over 70 years old and therefore the energy required to build the car initially has, I believe, been well and truly put to good use. In closing, I think that the next time I receive my registration bill, I should ask for a rebate given that my vehicle embodies a significant carbon sink ie the car has a wooden body frame! Brett |
My cars are autos and I am learning to use my left foot to brake. My work involves driving ambulances, which have manual transmissions; I have no problems in 'switching' between the two mediums.
I also employ a method, apparently championed by Setright, of traversing speed ramps with greater smoothness. By applying the brakes with a quick stab of the pedal, just as the front wheels meet the sleeper, causes the suspension to be compressed from above and below, cancelling out the thump. |
LJK Setright
Don't!
If you need to brake, your right foot will already have lifted off the accelerator, and you will know exactly where the brake pedal is using the same foot. Especially important if you need to brake hard in an emergency! Amazed ambulances by the way don't have automatic gearboxes! Andrew. |
LJK Setright
When I first started driving automatics I had to keep my left foot
well clear of the pedals to avoid putting both feet on the brake pedal to stop. I believe that some modern cars not only have ABS but also Emergency Brake Assist, which realises you're anxious to stop quickly and increases pedal pressure to emergency to stop levels. This is because experiments have been to show that we don't brake hard enough or fast enough in emergencies. |
I don't think it's a good idea getting used to using the left foot for braking.
Regards, Markus |
LJK Setright
I'm glad mine doesn't!
What if there are cars behind you and you, or in this case your car, over reacts? Andrew. |
[deleted] double post
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This allows the nose of the vehicle to rise just as the wheels try to rise, giving some relief to the shockers. Your (Setright's) technique means that the suspension is already compressed, at a time when it is supposed to start doing it's work, putting a greater strain on the shocker turrets. Another technique, often used by chauffeurs on driveways with those short high type of bump, is to angle the vehicle so that you traverse them one wheel at a time, this is of course doen very slowly and is not a normal roadway method. |
I think we need to be very proactive - that developing philosophies along lines similar to Brett's thoughts if we are going to survive in a future as older car custodians. Particularly so as prevailing opinions could well become increasingly hostile towards those of us with an appreciation for any classic car.
John Keighley. |
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It is possible that the technique you have described is in fact the one employed by LJKS; I received the information second hand, as the saying goes, by an individual who recalled reading a piece that Setright authored. I have not seen the article. The method that I described does seem to be effective but I will nevertheless experiment with your method. Thank you for your imput! |
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LJK Setright
I'm afraid I can't name his inaccuracies though I've been reading them on and off since the sixties, I was so cross about something he said of the BMW R100RS that I phoned him and told him so. He just never took the trouble to get things right and often regurgitated old wives tales that just weren't correct. Adam Kimberley, who was a friend towards the end agreed, though he greatly admired the LJKS writing style.
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LJK Setright
There is a mlVI Bentley in the street about a half a mile from me
which is completely silent as it hasn't moved for at least six months. It has a black paint job done with a house brush and some dulux. I have to say it looks like a hearse. Paul |
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The owner of a local factory bought one in the Forties and kept it till he died in the early seventies, I remember being stunned by it as a child and seeing around locally for years, eventually it became an ambition to own one. I've had mine since '98 and driven backwards and forwards to France in it numerous times including doing a Louis Vuitton in Paris and also all over the UK. It is so comfortable, quiet and smooth that all it lacks is air conditioning. Now I run a website providing technical support and I've made contact with other owners the world over. Most experts agree that it is the second and last time R-R made the best car in the world. So I'm sorry you don't like it, but hope that I've persuaded you to feel more kindly towards it from now on. After all, Bristols are not to everyone's taste. Ash |
LJK Setright
Paul what's wrong with a car looking like a hearse? Many people are dying
for a ride in one! Richard |
LJK Setright
Not a criticism of the Bentley, but one of the things I do like
about Bristols (of the metal variety) is that nobody would ever accuse you of drivaing a wedding car which is the case with some classics. I did see an absolutely stunning Continental R last night in London though |
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Frankly, if you are going to slag off a widely published an author who is deceased and cannot defend himself, the very least you can do is list the myriad inaccuracies that you claim he churned out! Other than History of the World's Motorcycles, which particular other Setright books do you think are full of mistakes? Kevin PS. Who is Adam Kimberley and why should we care if he agrees with you? |
Of course the Bentley Mark VI is a very nice car.
I just don't get the point why it should be the last acceptable Bentley and why the succeeding line (S1-S3) should be any worse. Regards, Markus |
LJK Setright
Kevin
As you might imagine I don't keep books that are inaccurate and can't remember ones I've ditched, but Setright has always been a bête noir of mine because he was so careless with the facts. I think he describes one race in a Bristol that was finished either with a hole in the sump or a rod through a block. Very unlikely I'd have thought. I've just pulled up a book called The Designers by LJKS that is full of errors too. Or you could contrast early Bristol history in From Chain Drive To Turbocharger by DSJ with LJKS's efforts. I should add that I'm not alone with this view and I'm very surprised that you were unaware of what is quite widely accepted. Unfortunately your Forum removes all links to other sites and thus prevents me introducing you to Adam Kimberley's musings. He is a Consultant Anaesthetist, a Member of the Royal Institution and was a long standing friend of LJKS, where I barely knew him through an association with Steve Cropley and other members of Car magazine. Adam knew him until he died and was very aware of his prejudices and his intellect. Lansdowne Although you may not see Bristols as wedding cars I often get sent pictures of them decked out with ribbons, just as I do the occasional MKVI, usually from teasing chums. I'm comforted by the knowledge that the Hummer has overtaken both in popularity for this particular job. Kevin My websites get up to one thousand uniques a day and Adam's articles are extremely popular, so why not track them down instead of deriding him. He's a superb photographer as well. Ash |
Ash,
First of all, how have I "derided" Adam Kimberley, I simply asked who he was and why we should care that he agrees with you about Setright. Not unreasonable questions. I don't mean to be disrespectful to the chap, but I don't really see how being a Consultant Anaesthetist and a Member of the Royal Institution qualifies him as a literary critic. You compare Jenks' From Chain Drive To Turbocharger with LJKS's books, presumably with specific reference to the Bristol related sections of the former book. Jenk's was telling a story from the Aldington's perspective and LJKS was telling the same story from the Bristol/White family perspective. Both authors were writing largely based on what they had been told by the respective families. I find it interesting that the two stories differ, but it's hardly surprising that they do and who is to say which version is the truth? As for The Designers, it may not be one of LJKS' more applauded works, but as you have a copy this would be a good opportunity for you to be more specific about the errors you say it if full of. Perhaps you could give us half a dozen for starters? Kevin (aka Bamber) PS. For the record, this site does not remove all links to other sites, as is clear from numerous posts in this thread. Click here if you wish to read my policy on linking to other sites. |
LJK Setright
Having had a Mk VI and an S1, I found I was happier with the Mk VI. The
gearbox is a delight and the car has a certain "feel" to it that others are missing. The vintage look has its own appeal. I did, however, prefer the S1 at high speed. Dorien |
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If you read some of Adam's stuff you'll find that he's exceptionally gifted and writes very much in the style of Setright although with more humour. However he's not trying to be a literary critic, his only opinion is that Setright was a brilliant writer, but not necessarily accurate. This is a fairly widespread view that you could bear in mind for the future if historical accuracy interests you. P & A Wood is the World Heritage Rolls-Royce dealer and Andrew is one of many who feel that the '46-'55 cars are the best the company made after the Silver Ghost. The later cars are just as beautifully made, but more complex, more troublesome and above all, not very nice to drive and very much less economical. They tend to wander at speed which is a nuisance for the driver, but they are extraordinarily comfortable to ride in. R-R's greatest leader was Lord Hives and before the war he was tasked with making the hitherto unprofitable car division profitable and he was friends with the Wilkes brothers of Rover. His influence saw to it that the MKVI and derivatives were as simple and sensible, but still of the highest quality, as could be made. The Pre War Wraith was the first of his incarnations and it was a great deal better than its predecessors. The Phantom 3 was incredibly troublesome and lost the company a great deal of money — hence the need for policy change. They were still carrying out guarantee work after the war to avoid adverse publicity! Post '45 War Hives main concern was to keep 64,000 people in a job of which only 2000 were making cars, so he left it to Grylls who started back in the direction of P3s again. He also made cars that were not suited to British roads, whereas the EPWs were sold as "Silent Sports Cars" and drove exceedingly well. Capt Eyston and Raymond Mays were amongst their champions as was Wolf Barnato and his daughter Diana. The problem with any old R-R is that it is so different from any other car in so many ways, especially brakes, suspension and steering, that it is rare to find one that drives as it should. If you did, you'd see immediately why '46-55 cars are so revered. I should point out that I'm expressing widely held views rather than just my own opinion and that this is explained on my websites Ashley PS. I'll leave it to Kevin to decide whether or not a link to my websites is permissible, although I'd have thought any links to anything could only be a benefit, for me that is what makes the internet so exciting. PPS. IMO Jenks sticks to facts and avoids hearsay. |
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I'm asking only that you provide some examples of the errors in this book, surely that's not too much to ask given the accusations you make and the fact that Setright isn't around to defend himself. Quote:
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LJK Setright
Kevin
I think you are beating this one to death for no real purpose. I've opined that Setright wasn't always historically accurate and that it annoyed me and you've stated that he admitted there were mistakes in his Bristol book. Therefore I think it's reasonable to assume that his other books have mistakes in them too. I don't know if any of you read the Automobile which is an excellent Magazine for historical accuracy, but a couple of months ago Jonathan Wood (an excellent Historian and writer) did a piece on the 400 and, as he usually does, introduced new and verified information to the story. He showed that Bristol paid BMW for the drawings and he better explained the contrasts between AFN and Bristol, so he filled in a few holes where Jenks had stuck to facts and avoided politics and Setright had reported hearsay. It's an interesting story and worth getting right and Jonathan has done that. Over the last nine years I've paid thousands of pounds out to provide properly designed websites that contain verifiable information not readily available anywhere else simply because I had trouble finding it when I was rebuilding my cars. I've used some of the most authoritative sources in the world and where possible relied on company records. I've also published stories from owners explaining what their cars mean to them, I've published stories of old car events from all over the world and for the last six years I've organised trips to France that have produced visitors from all over the world, often from Australia and including David Neely (one time Editor of the OZ RROC bulletin and noted R-R Historian) and Paul Samuels with his wife who I'm sure you all know. I think it is fair to say that my sites are now widely regarded as the best resource for the cars they cover. As I previously stated my webstats show up to 1000 unique visitors a day, which I think remarkable considering the number of cars registered with the clubs. I derive no gain of any sort beyond friendship for all this either. Therefore if I provided a link to them in response to someone asking technical questions, needing specialist help or suppliers on your Forum, it is because it is the best and most helpful way to answer their question. It is not spamming! The only reason any of this functions is because we all love our old cars, we like making friends and we want to help one and other. In my view links to anything and everything are are part of this as well as a vital source of knowledge and helpful to us all. They are not spam either! Ashley |
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If we were having a discussion in a pub with a handful of people present I would challenge you to "put up or shut up", but we're not, we're committing opinions to public record on a web site, which is very different. For your convenience, in my previous post I quoted precisely what you said, which was, "I've just pulled up a book called The Designers by LJKS that is full of errors too". Now I have invited you to point out just half a dozen errors in that book. In other words, simply back up your argument with some facts. If you are unable or unwilling to do so then I feel you should retract your previous statements and apologise to Setright. Your call. Kevin |
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