Re: Restore or buy restored ?

[TLF799R]

I think you are right Dorien but I would always value (on monetary terms) a
car done by professionals (and fully documented) higher because it has a
recognised value to the guy who buys the car after me.

I may know that the person who did it was great but I would then have to
waste time convincing the next buyer of the same and any buyer would be wary
because I would say it was great even if it wasn't because I want to sell the
car.

Philippa

[Hydroglen]

Thank you Philippa a valid point for many.......but I would go the other
route. If I bought a privately restored car, I would have met the owner
who could well be a well known entity. This may prove to be a higher
rating than a professional.
It would be a "personal" thing, that would mean more to me than a so called
professional. I am very much a "hands on" person, so being able to talk face
to face with the restorer and how he did certain items would be very
important. I might also have paid less, as the private restoration did not
have to make a profit or pay wages and overhead. Therefore "the guy who
buys" it from me ( If I ever sold it ) would have in turn paid less and
hence less "conversation".
But then again we all paddle our respective canoes differently.

I have been VERY fortunate over the years in meeting some great people
whom I searched out during or prior to a mechanical rebuild.
This was pre-internet days but via some luck, connections and research I was
fortunate to meet Larry Bowden, who as a young man worked at Lagonda. He had
actually been part (documented in Lagonda archives and signed by WO ) of the
crew that built the engine on my car in 1929. In 1982 the two of us rebuilt
that same 2 lit Lagonda engine!
Fusi and Sanesi (respectively designer and tester/Gran Prix driver Alfa 159)
from Alfa Romeo would periodically visit me whilst I worked on one of my 6C
cars. They would invariably provide sound advice. B Siegfried who worked on
and raced my Indy car in the 30s from whom I have many letters working me
through the intricacies of setting up an engine for which no manuals were
written. He basically wrote them for me left handed after having suffered a
stroke and lost the use of his right hand. These people became friends,
helpers and mentors, whilst at the same time telling me all the interesting
stories of the "behind the scenes" of some premier car manufacturers. When
I started racing my Indy car, Siegried wanted to know my results, and I was
gently "chided" for not doing better. After every race I would feel like a
schoolboy whose homework was not up to scratch! I was given pointers on
tricks to use on the track and a request to report back after the next
event. Talk about pressure! Eventually I was finishing in the top 4 and the
pressure was off a little.
Then of course there are "professionally" restored race cars for
sale........
I am sure there are many others who have been equally fortunate to have had
that "personal" assistance. To me it is priceless, and if down the road this
means little to a potential new owner then he definitely does NOT deserve
that car.
As Peter pointed out in an earlier post, part of the collecting fun is the
interest. I would ad that it is also the people you meet and this site is a
good example.
I would definitely NOT find it interesting to want to convince a potential
buyer of anything. People who need convincing are better suited to other
endevours.........
Cheers
Dorien

[406Special]

Dorien, Agree entirely. By maintaining a lead project manager/visionary designer/owner role I have met some wonderful and interesting people as I journey through the restoration. Hence the knowledge and interest knowing what I will have in the end is as much a part of me as if I did the work myself, although I do not have the skill or the time to acquire the skill.

To answer Kevin, about "Bristol specifically" it is merely that my current experience is related to Bristols, although I think that a bare shell/rolling chassi Bentley or Ferrari or other highly regarded classic will have a much higher starting point and will have some parts or suspension and drive train much more costly than say a standard Bristol 6 or 8. On a Bristol, the most expensive bits are the body work and back axle (6 or 8) as well as front axle, plus the Bristol 6 engine.

Spent yesterday afternoon wandering around Peurto Benus near Malaga and I cannot understand why some people need to own a bright yellow Lamborghini convertible and then to drive short parades around the waterfront to show off their toy. My son reckons we ought to come back in a 3 wheel Reliant Robin and spend all day driving up and down in front of the crowds and large boats.


Clyde

[Ashley James]

everything on R-R & B costs a
fortune, even an R Type engine rebuild is likely to be £14k,3 a bare
metal respray plus rust removal can be £35k and complete interior n
early £20k, so worse than a 406, but not much.
I reckon that by doing most of the work myself and using proper
specialists I spent about £40k plus on my 400, but we restored the
leather rather than retrimming, the woodwork was okay, so only
carpets, headlining and sun visors. If you add my hours then £80k I
suppose.
Ash

[Hydroglen]

The best part will be the U turns on a sixpence!
Dorien

[geo]

Originally Posted by Ashley James

everything on R-R & B costs a
fortune, even an R Type engine rebuild is likely to be £14k,3 a bare
metal respray plus rust removal can be £35k and complete interior n
early £20k, so worse than a 406, but not much.

Ah, so you are the same Ashley who has written so eloquently on things R-type!

Based upon the comparison of two 408s and a 412 with my R-type and that of a close friend, I have to say that this is not my experience.

The R-type does need a higher level of constant attention (well, one had to find something for the chauffeur to do when he was not driving!) and because the model was far more numerous in its day, even today the supply of spare parts is still relatively good — something that is essential if the vehicle is used as an 'every-day' car and I found a little disappointing with the Bristols (especially the 412 which at the time of my ownership was under 15 years old). In terms of design, of course the Bristol is far superior to many of the archaic features of the R-type, even if the latter is a faster car in a straight line.

My experience is that if one gets all of one's servicing done by one of the foremost R-R/Bentley names and any restoration work done by those who specialize in customers with unlimited means; then what Ashley is contending is true. The R-type, however, is fairly straightforward to work on oneself and if one is prepared to pore over manufacturers' catalogues, then quite a few parts are not at all expensive although I doubt that I would ever repeat my triumph of obtaining a set of big-end bearings (shared with an early 3-litre Alvis) for £45!

The Standard Steel body is simple in construction having been pressed by Pressed Steel in Cowley and much easier to repair than those of a Bristol. The chassis and suspension appears to have been far better made (over specified?) as both cars of which I have experience have survived much better underneath than any of my Bristols. Surely both models require circa the same amount of paint to be poured over them and have similar amounts of carpet, leather, woodwork, headlining to replace. Again, in my experience, these fare rather better — especially the leather and carpet. Many other items such as windscreens and bumpers are, in comparison, of modest cost.

Which did I prefer driving? Well, the Bristols of course, but Ashley's comment was about cost of ownership and restoration.

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted by geo

Based upon the comparison of two 408s and a 412 with my R-type and that of a close friend, I have to say that this is not my experience.

But George, you are not comparing apples with apples. The Bentley R Type can not be considered contemporary with even a Bristol 408, let alone a 412.

How about comparing restoration costs with a Bentley T1/2 or Corniche, or a Ferrari 365 GT 2+2, a Maserati Quattroporte or 5000GT, or an Aston Martin DBS V8.

These are what I would consider contemporary cars to the V8 Bristols and they would cost considerably more to restore. Mainly due to their complexity and/or the many proprietary parts used.