401 ~ rear window

[brian401]

Before I contact Brian M for a possible new-old wood fillet replacement for the rear window of my 401 ~ does anyone know of or can suggest an improved substitute?

The original wood fillet appears to have been manufactured (?) from a number of multi-layered (laminated) plywood segments ~ mine disintegrated on removing the metal finisher. (surround)

Due to the compound curves of the surround a ridge one piece fillet would be difficult to fabricate without an engineering drawing ~ unless you know otherwise.

Brian

[Des]

I have to attend to my rear window soon, the glass just about hanging in
there, my plywood frame had a dry rot look about it and crumbled also, it
does look as if this frame was engineered to support the glass around its
periphery, as the sealing compound, (some kind of window putty cocktail) had
little adhesive effect, I'll use Tiger seal, or something similar intended
for modern bonded screens, this stuff sticks a bit too well, then a dozen
or so wooden blocks to hold the glass while the sealant hardens, and
somewhere to screw the surround down, I'll do a dry run first.

[brian401]

Hi Des ~ I didn't expect to be the only one with the problem. I have
experimented with replacement blocks (fillets) but not too happy with the
result. The fillets need to be secured to the window frame, the original
being held by self tap screws. The fillet also provides means of attaching
the head lining.

Please let me know how you get o

[Bellerophon]

When the fillet was made at Bristol it was over size both on the outside
that fits into the steel frame, and on the inside where the roof lining is
trapped between the wood and the aluminium finishing strip.
The method of fitting the wood frame which has two functions first to hold
the glass in position and secondly to form an attachment point for the roof
lining, is to use a spoke shave or similar tool to obtain a fit of the
wood in the frame. The inner side can then be formed using the aluminium
finishing strip as a gauge and allowing for the thickness of the roof lining.
When the car was made the window was sealed using a mixture of 50% Bostic C
and 50% Dum Dum, however there are modern materials now.
These wooden frames only fail when the seal gives way and lets in the
water, this can be detected by water finding its way into the boot, so if this
is the case act on it before you loose too much of the frame.
Hope this is of help, my regards,
Bellerophon

[Des]

Oh yes I was forgetting the headlining, I suppose I better make that lots
of wooden blocks, if I get onto it soon I'll take pics.

I had to re -seal the rear window on my 403 a couple of years ago. I bonded
the glass in place with a modern glass adhesive. As you will know, modern
car screens are secured this way. This glass will not require holding in
place whilst it sets as it has very good 'grab' qualities, and it will not
leak. An inner frame is required to fix the headlining to, and to hold the
aluminium trim. I made this up from strips of Millboard. This is a very
dense cardboard type of material which is used for glove boxes etc. and can
be built up to the required thickness using Evostik or similar between
layers. You can use the 'inner' suface of the alluminium trim to wrap the
board around, to give the correct shape, and keep adding layers until the
correct thickness is achieved. It can be trimmed as necessary with a sharp
blade when the glue is dry and then screw into place in the same way as the
original timber, and is hard enough to hold staples to secure the
headlining.
I hope this is helpful.
Mike.

[peter dowdle]

some 30 years ago i had the same problem with my 401

to fix it i cut out a block of timber the shape of the opening using the
old timber strip a a guide

took it to a cooper ( makes wine barrels) he cut out a strip of timber and
steam moulded it to fit

the pattern i had made

i then raspt some taper into it to fit to window opening

worked just fine

regards peter dowdle

[brian401]

Hi Mike ~ Thanks for your suggestion. Woolies of Cambridgeshire sell
Millboard as door card with a special black finish at 2.3 mm thick. I've
estimated that the fillet should be 2 cm so should be able to laminate
fairly simply. Now to find a local stockist.



Brian

[Bellerophon]

I still have a full sheet of Woolies black faced milboard and have use it
in the past for interior panels, however, from my experience I would not
think it would be the best material for the job. too much like cardboard and
it tares. I would make a frame up using the aluminium finishing strip as a
pattern, but with something with a little more body in it.
My regards,
Bellerophon

[dave dale]

For the past 2 years I have been plagued with the problem of water entering the boot of my 403. I dismissed the rear window seal as the culprit as everyone agreed that it looked in good order, added to which the rear window blind which is furled directly under the window, never seemed to be damp. I purchased, at a considerable cost, a series of rubber seals, edge trims, weatherstrips and other gadgets every few months. They failed one after the other to cure the leak. I poked my nose into the boot of every aerodyne that came my way and of which the owner was prepared to listen to my tale of woe. Frustratingly, although some had edge strips and similar in place, most had no seals of any sort in the boot edge or boot lid. Nobody else had a boot leak. Mike Davies even showed me the carpet ( !!!! ) in his boot – never once got damp. That depressed me further.

On Nov 8th. Bellerophon wrote, >>These wooden frames only fail when the seal gives way and lets in the water, this can be detected by water finding its way into the boot>> This inspired me to route out the old seal around the rear window and renew it. I waited five days for rain and none came ( yes – it's true ) so today I hosed the rear window and boot for five minutes. Not a drop of water in the boot ! The acid test will be when I drive in a downpour but I'm hopeful. Thank you Alan.
So there must be a lesson here for all aerodyne owners. If you suffer a leak into the boot – change the rear window seal before doing anything else. It could save a lot of heartache.
Dave Dale.

[camkram]

Dear Reader,
In the course of renovating my 403, I have had to remove the window trim & rear glass. The timber frame had perished & only small sections remained complete.
Note this vehicle was in dry hibernation for about 20 yrs, so cannot say water was the culprit.
Thought about cutting replacement out of marine ply, however, curves in the roll of the body as well as the corners all but impossible to duplicate - ply too thick (6mm), unwieldy & unforgiving.
Good friend & Rover tragic cut strips of oak (English , I am led to believe) to duplicate remnant frame construction. As they bend without splitting, they do not require steaming so currently building up the thickness, one timber strip at a time, layer by layer utilizing the steelframe - left in situ, as the guide. Would photos be beneficial?
If successful, this should duplicate the original style of construction.
Was a jig used originally ? Reference to frame being spoke shaved to suit, has been made.

The original strips do not appear to be glued together, but currently using a interior/exterior PVA glue to ensure shape holds in place.
Body roll at base of window causing the most grief.
If successful - i.e do not deplete entire vocabulary of expletives during assembly - I will return to crow about results - this may take weeks to complete.

Rear brake lights - Installation of thin strip LED across top of rear window? Has this been done - successfully? As headlining is out , this safety feature warrants consideration .

Side effect - have plenty of marine ply to reproduce dash board timber or rear parcel shelf.

Yours in passing,
Camkram

[camkram]

Three weekends in - 4 oak bands installed.Same as the original.
In 2 groups of 2 - did not like the lamination on the first 2 outer bands - lateral slip - but they stayed true to the steel frame, so leaving them as a template with the intention of replacing them when the inner bands have set.
Not using the aluminium frame (cover) as it is too easily distorted.
Posted some pics, when you do not have enough hands.
Having a template makes cutting each new strip to size easier & staggering overlapping the joints for strength .
Working amongst vineyards & not a cooper within co- ee ......

Yours in passing,
Camkram.

[Geoff Kingston]

Very impressed with your reconstruction of the wood frame, makes me wonder if it might be worth saving the rear window section of an old 401 roof if it has not rotted away to do something similar on the bench, what thickness of oak strips did you use.
Geoff.

[camkram]

Geoff,
Oak strips 3 mm x 20mm. Quarter sawn, I am guessing on that though.
Yes, recommend using steel frame as template. Much easier to control timber to frame.
I have removed the frame from the car & find it was grossly over sized .
Able to use glass & alum frame to assist in reducing overall size.
Separate steel frame should eliminate that problem.

The original innermost remnant timber strip is heavily tapered on the inside edge - photo may illustrate situation. Presume it will provide smoother/softer edge for head lining & allow alum frame to slide in .

I have glued 2 strips together - overlapping butt joints to hold the shape and will do the same to the remaining strips when they go in. Very flexible but also very stiff to the lateral curve along the bottom edge of the window.
Might suggest wider strips & shave to follow curve as the alternate option to cutting the strips across to flex will introduce an inherent weakness should there be any water penetration from a break down in the window seal - don't think condensation would help either ...

Yours in passing,
C.K

[Geoff Kingston]

Thanks for the further information and pictures.
Geoff.

[camkram]

Further to my last post on remaking the timber frame for the rear window - Using a combination of the laminated timber strips that I had moulded to the steel frame in the car and the internal finishing aluminium frame, I steamed up 2 more strips and bonded them together.
As per the photos.
This way the corners of the window frame and the body roll could be accommodated with limited torsional twisting along the lower edge of the frame where it is most pronounced.
The result fits very snugly into the frame and will require some sanding to have a better fit along that bottom edge as well as substantial removal of timber in the outer edge to allow the head lining room to be folded over and secured.
Suspect oak may be resilient to tacks , but that is the way with this type of work - one solution leads to another problem.
If it was easy, it wouldn't be addictive,
Yours in passing,
Camkram

[camkram]

Since the interior is out to access the window - work started on removing the masonite on the rear parcel shelf which has suffered water damage.

Used marine ply, slightly thicker and denser but should avoid any future issues with any minor leaks that might occur.

The blind roller has a curve in it like a hockey stick .

To avoid being met with incredulous looks when I wander into an awning manufacturer seeking a new one - are there replacements about or do I need to hollow out a bit of dowel or gut & insert spring into a plastic tube of similar dimensions?

Yours in passing,
Camkram