New 403 owner

[Kevin H]

That Daimler V8 is a sweet sounding engine, wouldn't have anywhere near as much grunt as the Rover V8 but might be more in keeping with a 403.

As for Bristol's use of Chrysler engines, don't forget that Jensen also used them at the time, so did Facel Vega and Monteverdi. So Bristol were in good company.

The fact is, adopting the Chrysler power train instead of developing their own would be a major contributing factor in Bristol's survival to this day.

Kevin

PS. Don't even think about going down the electric route!

[Hal]

Originally Posted by Kevin Howard

PS. Don't even think about going down the electric route!

So I take it that going electric would be grounds for excommunication ?

[Claude]

Originally Posted by Hal

So I take it that going electric would be grounds for excommunication ?

Yes, Kevin. A sound engineering analysis of why such an assertion would be appreciated.

We had a visit years ago from an overseas visitor just out of the army who had the disconcerting habit of responding with "You are wrong", said with sufficient finality that it took us quite a while to figure out how to have a reasonable conversation.

Claude

[Claude]

Originally Posted by Hal

Claude,

As a newbie, I found your observations illuminating, especially about Bristol cars not “venerating” their cars, and that the soul of a Bristol is that of an engineer.

These comments seem to make sense to me. Especially, since as you point out that they will happily modernise one of their earlier models to full modern spec. And I accept that a retrofit done by the factory, would be perceived as proper.

But if we start looking at electric, LPG etc, whether factory approved or not, surely it begs the question again of what is it that makes a Bristol. Is it the power plant? the chassis, the design or some other mechanical or design aesthetic that if we see it, we can recognise and identify as uniquely Bristol.

As a new owner, in my “ignorance” I would say that its understated cars, with good British engineering values, and cars for grown ups that are practical, and that on the whole form follows function.

But if “Britishness” is a core value, then how can they use the Chrysler bits without sacrificing this value ?

These are more questions than statements, as the answers I believe will help clarify / pin down what is lets say acceptable and what isn’t.

If it’s just engineering, then surely any and all superior engineering could be added ?

I suspect that my lack of knowledge of Bristol cars and oily bits in general would preclude me from being the one that could talk to Bristol cars. I’d probably make some daft suggestion that would get me shot or make me persona non grata, lol.

Hal

I would say the core value of a Bristol is not Britishness, but singularity, which perhaps may be a British quality. At first it was a way to keep talented aeroplane guys in work. It then became the life purpose for Tony Crook who was perhaps one of the most singular men in the industry, in the mould of Henry Ford in some ways (but not in others). Now Toby Silverton has taken it on, preserving the singularity while injecting new life into the beast.

The number one distinguishing quality of the car is not where the parts come from (remember, it started as German war booty) but survival.

Next it is the boy passion... the absurd idea that you can build your own car, not have it be seen as a kit car or Las Vegas car (like the Excaliber, for example), and keep churning them out decade after decade.

Purity is not there. It would be heresy to put a chevy big block into a Rolls Royce because the factory would not consider such a thing. Tradition would be offended. Chopping the top off a Bristol is called a Special, not a travesty.

The curious thing is because the fraternity (co-ed) of Bristol aficionados is so small, it really can define and redefine what is acceptable. A single individual can make a huge difference - look at S.L. Jones, Andrew Blow or Brian May, for example. If you, Hal, decided to not only convert your car to pure electric, but you did the engineering so it could become a kit, and then you put together a service that started converting every engineless Bristol, you would define the car and change the "reality".

If a Bristol has soul, number one it is the experience first of walking up to it... it's visual, what it looks like (especially the 401-3 models which look like snow sculpted in a blizzard). Next, it is inside the cockpit as the driver. Again, it begins as a visual experience that becomes more pronounced as more cars are plastic moulded. It also is olfactory, the smells of real leather and wool. Then it is the driving experience, which is more about handling than sounds. The old Bristol 6 had a distinct sound, but the V8 sounds depend entirely on what silencers (mufflers) it has. Handling is a big part of the Bristol, as is the ride which varies widely depending on how old the rubber bits are in the car.

Unless a Bristol is seriously butchered, that soul remains despite mechanical variations made. As a historian, I prefer to see variations that are bolt on, or that chop simple sheet metal, such as the bolt on transmission housing, because one day the cars may be worth returning to factory original. There are places like Bruce Pigeon's shop in Christchurch that make factory quality parts, and one of the nice things about Bristols is that most unique parts are relatively simple, since complexity requires too high volume.

So, don't worry about killing the soul of your car by what powerplant you implant, or even chopping the top off, provided you do it very well. I owned a 405 Drophead that required a complete restoration (No. 4510... brilliantly finished by the factory for the fellow who bought it from me). When we looked at the work done by Abbot in making it a drophead, the restoration guy said the Bristol welder belonged in the welder's hall of fame, but the Abbot guys must have been blacksmiths for the crude way they chopped off the top. In his view, the 405s were built as standard and then converted afterwards. Not sure if this is true, but if so, it certainly gives a green light to aftermarket jobs.

Cheers
Claude

[GREG]

Claude,

Hal lives quite near me so if he wants to go electric I will help him. I will even work on a kit so others can follow.

All we need is investors -- any offers ? Or is reality the real option i.e making a 402 special with a diseasel or petrol engine strong enough to do it justice.

As extra space would be created making a 402 by loosing the rear seats perhaps room for LPG ?

Sorry about being so negative about electric but the technology , cost , money , and even range when complete seem monumental hurdles. Nevertheless , any investors ??

Greg

[bkz411]

Speaking as very new owner of a full nut and bolt restored Bristol 411 (v6), I probably do not have the experience to comment on what makes a Bristol a Bristol. However, I would like to contribute to this discussion to state what an excellent job Bristol did on this car, and for me - asking them to rebuild a 411 from scratch was an inspired plan. My brother has now asked Bristol to do the same to a Bristol 603 and I am eagerly awaiting a drive in that!

[GREG]

Any chance of some BKZ411 pictures -- I am thinking of doing similar !

[bkz411]

No problem - my car was reviewed in Octane, see
http://www.classicandperformancecar....uy_it_new.html

[Des]

Electric wise, lead acid is a dead duck, Toyota make a grotesque hybrid thing which I notice tend to be driven appallingly, and there's an issue with Toyota brakes, perhaps smashed examples are piling up in scrap yards waiting for their modern technology batteries to be harvested, shame if they go to waste as their manufacture will have caused vast pollution.
Obviously how the car will be used needs consideration before going 'leccy, for delivering bottles of milk in the early hours it's ideal. How about towing a trailer mounted diesel generator for electric power, run on the agricultural red stuff, this could even be legal in a loophole kind of way, charge exempt congestion zone cruising!
I wouldn't be keen myself for a rover V8, It's what powers my regular car and I find them a rough old lump of monkey metal, but still likeable if that makes sense, more suited to a tractor than a lightweight car, and that famed 'V8 rumble' is not a good thing. There are far nicer engines out there, Big Lexus Merc copy has an ohc 4l V8, come to think of it, might be worth looking at what powers Mercs.
BMW engines, from what I've seen, do tend to be sprawled across their bays, but would be the one to go for if at all feasible, though I do think unlikely.
As for diesel, I heard or read some years ago that a diesel powered car is like being gay, more acceptable than it used to be, but still wrong.

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted by Claude

Yes, Kevin. A sound engineering analysis of why such an assertion would be appreciated.

It's not about engineering Claude. I'm sure it's possible, but a big part of the reason is in your next post "The old Bristol 6 had a distinct sound".

But apart from that, the economic viability, poor range and lack of re-fuelling facilities in the UK, it just wouldn't be proper!

Originally Posted by bkz411

Speaking as very new owner of a full nut and bolt restored Bristol 411 (v6)

v6 ?
is that a typo?

[kfitzgerald]

The theory that the change from Bristol engines to Chrysler engines
undermines the engineering does not take into account the engineering
skills of Chrysler. Having owned a number of cars, including Chryslers,
I can say that not all American V-8s are the same. The emissions
standards of the 70's killed Ford and GM's v8s. Chryslers were not in
the same problem of losing all power.
As far as putting something into a 403, there was an Arnolt Bristol that
had a Triumph 6 and gear box installed without cutting up the frame. I
believe it was a TR6 engine and box. Kevin

[bkz411]

The (v6) was a typo - should have been "series 6", the first/only one ever
made.

[GREG]

Originally Posted by bkz411

No problem - my car was reviewed in Octane, see
Bristol 411 - buy it new

You lucky lucky lucky so and so -- very very nice... let me know if you ever want to sell it .. cheap

[Hal]

Originally Posted by bkz411

No problem - my car was reviewed in Octane, see
Bristol 411 - buy it new

Wonderful car. I'm quite envious.

Before this modern 411, what car did you drive. What i mean is how does the driving experience compare to lets say a higher end BMW or Mercedes ?

[Hal]

Originally Posted by Des

Obviously how the car will be used needs consideration before going 'leccy, for delivering bottles of milk in the early hours it's ideal.

Now that's an idea, starting a milk round !

Originally Posted by Des

I wouldn't be keen myself for a rover V8, It's what powers my regular car and I find them a rough old lump of monkey metal,

Agreed, the ones i've heard did sound a tad agricultural (diesels i mean, dont know about petrol versions)

Originally Posted by Kevin Howard

But apart from that, the economic viability, poor range and lack of re-fuelling facilities in the UK, it just wouldn't be proper!

I'm sure that people said the same about LPG when Bristol introduced it as an option.

[Rubbond]

Gourgeous - but those switches and air ducts!

[seanmcs]

Where, please.

Sean

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted by seanmcs

Where, please.

Sean

I think he means the ones in this picture

[Rubbond]

I did indeed!
Surely aircraft-type click-clack switches would be better - like the 1920's
domestic light switches? More functional and pleasing to the eye.
The air vents remind me of an Austin Allegro. Or I suppose any other 1970's
car. Not my period, and I think the worst period in history for design.
The shape of the 411 however is still very distinctive and pleasing, and on
this car, gone are the horrible 1970's wheels etc..
I guess Bristol were lagging 10 years behind in design at the time, maybe
later went wrong in the 1980's?
I'm not really familiar with the later models, but wasn't keen on them when
contempory.
Rgds,
Andy.

[bkz411]

My father once owned a 411 and he allowed me the priviledge of driving it
when I was 17 yrs old. A most memorable journey - not least because the
alternator was broken and we got stuck half way between Winchester and
Southampton.
Recently I had a brief love affair with an old XJS HE 5.3 but that caused me
no end of trouble, breaking down 13 times in one year, before being
converted to the security of Mercedes, and have driven an A Class, and later
a B class. My one concern with owning a classic was reliability, but as this
car comes with a new car warranty that doesn't appear to be an issue. I will
let you know as I get more accustomed to driving it - but my experience to
date has been over whelmingly good.