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| 6 cyl Bristol cars Type 400 to 406 - restoration, repair, maintenance etc |
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12-02-10, 01:52 PM
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New 403 owner
Hello All,
I thought i would introduce myself, as a new Bristol owner. I very recently bought a Bristol 403 (without engine and gearbox). I have to be honest and admit that i bought the car on a whim, knowing nothing about the model, and very little about Bristol cars. Now that i've done the deed, i find myself out of my depth and experience. I'm hoping to restore the car myself, with some help from a mechanic who has restored VW bugs. However, i have zero technical skills, but hope to learn as i go along the required skills. Everyone tells me that i'm mad to even consider this, as early Bristol's require major skills, the aluminium bodywork is difficult to work with and weld and would be too difficult a project in general for a complete novice. Do the board members think that i'm being not very realistic considering the amount of work the car needs ? 
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12-02-10, 02:45 PM
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New 403 owner
You don't say how much work the car needs. If it is very nice and missing
the engine and gearbox, it may boil down to spending a fair amount to buy a Bristol engine or converting to another engine. Check the prices of a decent 403 and then do the math to see how much it would cost to make yours comparable. That will not require mechanical skills and will yield interesting information. Knowledge is power!! Cheers Dorien
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12-02-10, 05:03 PM
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Hello Dorien,
Thanks for your reply. The condition looks pretty poor to my untrained eye, as per the photos i enclosed. To make mine decent, the maths does'nt seem to add up. The big question from a cost standpoint seems to be the engine and gearbox. Are there alternatives to using a Bristol engine and gearbox ? Is there something from a recent BMW that would be readily available that i could use ? I say this based upon what i've read about the 403 being based upon a BMW design. Any thoughts / pointers ? thanks, Hal
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12-02-10, 05:30 PM
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New 403 owner
Hal -
I can't recall whether it was this forum or the BOC one that had some discussion of other engines suggested/fitted to a Bristol. I do recall one owner was well into a project to put in a Volvo engine, a 4 cyl I think. A Bristol sold recently in the US had a Ford Falcon engine installed. Unless you are very lucky, obtaining a 6 cyl Bristol engine and transmission is likely more expensive than your original purchase! Bob PS My car was in MUCH worse condition when I found it, so don't give up.
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12-02-10, 06:00 PM
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New 403 owner
Hi Hal,
I have not seen any pictures of your car. A modern BMW has absolutely no connection with the original BMW based 6 cyl engine. Others on this chat page may have done a conversion and can advise you more accurately. It may also boil down to what is available in your area at a cost that you are "happy" with. Remember that in an engine / gearbox conversion, many of the original intruments such as speedo and tach will not work and will have to be adjusted. A body shop can give you a general cost on their work based on pictures. If they are shy and moan that they need to "see" the car, ask them the cost of painting the car you are driving and tell them you are wanting a color change. Door jams and other detailing add $$. It will at least put you in the general price area and if your Bristol is rougher than the car you are driving...well the price just got higher!! Your VW man should be able to, via connections in the trade, give you an approximate engine installation charge / cost. Presumably you will need brakes + exhaust possibly interior work. Fiddly things like wiper motor and lights. They all add up in the red math section of your ledger lol. And of course the price you paid for the car, and do you REALLY want a Bristol 403 in the first place? Depending on what part of the world you are, in will make a BIG difference to the cost. In Europe you will pay double what you may pay in North America. There was a 401 or 403 for sale last year in the USA with a Ford 6cyl engine. They virtually give these away, so a relatively inexpensive transplant. It was Hyman motors that had the car. He usually has something for sale on EBay in the collector car section, so you could try and contact him and see if the car sold and for how much. It will help you with your math. Back on Wednesday....looking forwards to exciting news. Good luck Dorien
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12-02-10, 06:40 PM
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Bob,
Thanks for your information. Its beginning to dawn on me that there was a good reason why the car i bought did not come with an engine and gearbox, and the cost of buying these items is expensive. Thats why i'm considering using an alternative setup that would be more readily available and a lot cheaper. I'll try and not give up, but everyone keeps on telling me that its a hard road ahead (sigh).
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12-02-10, 07:01 PM
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Hi Dorien,
Ouch its sounding more and more expensive. It was an impulse purchase, but that impulse was based upon it being such a lovely shaped car. I want to restore it myself, and farm as little of the work out as possible. Yes its a tall order, and perhaps i'm being stupid, as all my family and friends keep on telling me, but the car has character and if i can persevere, it would be an interesting project. I want to keep the cost down to a sensible level, which is why a non Bristol replacement engine and gearbox sound appealing. If anyone has any ideas of what combo's i could use, that would be most helpful. Hal
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13-02-10, 01:41 AM
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From the pics that car looks in quite good order, but you need to take a close look underneath so you know what you're taking on, as long as you have somewhere to work on it comfortably, and have the time, then it needn't be terribly expensive, depends on what you want from the car. If you want to make it look factory fresh, you'll sink many tens of thousands, and be left with a car you daren't use, just another old car that hides under a dustsheet. In your pics I see a car that oozes character, you could even call it shabby chic or patina, it's unique, and it looks 'right'. I'd 'roll' it as is.
Have a good old prod, under that shapely panelwork is a steel support structure, look closely behind bottom rear of front wheelarches, under the alluminium splash panels are outriggers to support the bulkhead via square uprights, going rearward more outriggers to meet door pillars, take a good look at the door pillars also, especially the lower part, then there's strangely engineered sills, these are easy enough to make, then have a good look inside the rear arches, look under car below rear door pillar, shorter outrigger here, and the underside of the chassis in this area is where I've found them to go first. Lots of alluminium covers hide these areas, heavy corrosion / bulging on alluminium often means very rusty steel behind. Look inside the car, behind trim, at the steel tubing that makes up the roll cage like frame, this needs to be in good order. I've just listed areas I've noticed needing work on a few cars. A car of 50 plus years can have problems anywhere. If you're happy you can handle what you find go for it, you will be learning / gaining skills. There probably aren't many RWD engines that won't fit, the transmission tunnel is screwed down, no big deal to modify / make, biggest problem may be clutch actuation, exhaust or inlet clearing steering column, but the pair of nice flat chassis legs for engine mounts are a bonus. Maybe best to look for an upright engine, with carbs keeps it simple, Fiat / Alfa twin cam? they are quite nice, the red Volvo four pot is a good reliable lump, (a lot of jap stuff suitable but would just feel wrong) Should be easy to source something more powerful than the Bristol engine yet cheaper than buying a head gasket for the Bristol lump.
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13-02-10, 05:29 AM
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Hal
We are having a meeting at the Bridge Inn at Walshford near Wetherby on the 10 /11th of April. There will be a talk on Bristols on the 10th and a run on the 11th around the Dales. I think it could be good for you to see the cars and meet a few blokes that have restored them. Let me know if you want more info Greg
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13-02-10, 02:58 PM
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Des,
I agree that it does have a quite nice patina. But i don't think that i'll be able to keep it as is, because of all the aluminium thats reacted and turned into a white powdery substance. I was thinking that i should strip the car, remove it from the chassis, and then have the body soda blasted, and the chassis shotblasted. This should allow me to see what corrosion there is on the chassis and steel parts on the body and come up with a plan to have repaired. The alfa sounds nice. What about BMW's to keep lets say a genetic link to the design, distant cousins let say, but cousins non the less. If i ever get to start and finish this project, i think that its a car i would like to use on a regular basis, in the sun and in the rain. Cheers Hal
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13-02-10, 03:24 PM
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engine option
Hi Hal,
You might like to consider the 3-litre Humber Super Snipe/Imperial engine as it has several historical connections with Bristol. It was developed, maybe jointly, with Armstrong-Siddeley Motors as a development of their Sapphire 3.4 hemi-headed straight six. Several racing versions of the 346 engine were built c. 1953, producing c. 190bhp with iron head & twin Zenith single-choke sidedraughts or c. 230bhp with alloy head & triple Webers. Two engines went to Allard for Tommy Sopwith's "Sphinx Allard" and two were allocated to Frazer-Nash for 550F Le Mans Prototype. AC were also approached, but declined. These engines were developed for the AS Hunter sports car project that might have been an XK-beater, but was shelved. When Hawker-Siddeley & Bristol Aero bit merged to become Bristol-Siddeley at about same time that car division were looking to cease production of BMW derived engine in favour of more powerful off-the-shelf lump, they found themselves with an alternative engine in-house. It is believed that Bristol took 4 Star Sapphire 4-litre engines + auto boxes for fitment in prototype 407s, of which one is known to survive. One engine was also fitted in "Project 240 mule", but proved far too heavy & messed up the handling. I'm pretty sure this car was the "Bullet" on which the Blenheim Speedster was based, as it is known to have been used to test various engines, as well as being light enough to have handling affected by big lump (& Star engine was extra heavy) Its descendant Humber engine was much lighter, with shorter, lower block & thinner castings, but just as tuneable. There's a racing Sapphire 346 in Northern Ireland & no apparent problems with unleaded without hardened valve-seat inserts in iron head. There are rusting Humber hulks all over the place, in danger of being weighed in for scrap........................... Good luck, Rob
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13-02-10, 04:21 PM
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403: Out of Left Field
Hal. Bristol owners have tried all sorts of transplants, and from my viewpoint, one of these days a Bristol owners contingent should approach Tony Silverton at Bristol Cars and ask that the factory come up with an "approved" solution. Unlikely that it would be remanufacture of the old Bristol 6 and transmission, because the cost would be over the top even if they had it made in China.
More likely something along the lines of what they did with Chrysler, where they are phenomenally lucky to have chosen a power plant that was in production in 1960, and remains, in almost the same form today in 2010. However, it probably needs to be a lighter engine, and I envision Bristol developing a retrofit kit with the ideal making it a bolt-in solution using a common engine with similar performance characteristics to the original. Probably Japanese if they want practical, but could be German if they want tradition. Having said that, there may be another direction for you to go. Electric. Check out the electric car conversion business, and you find it is not all microcars. Ford and Chevy made pickup trucks that ran about 100 miles on a charge. The motor part is easy and small - it will fit into the drive bay, and typically uses a manual transmission. The battery part is the weight and cost, but a lot of this depends on range. Once installed, maintenance is far less. There are companies that will do it all for you, if you have the checkbook. See Electric Blue Motors Conversion Services for an example, quoting about $13,000 for a car. Do it yourself seems to be around $5,000 for parts. A few years ago, this would have been considered an off the wall idea, but times are changing thanks to folks like Tesla. The fact is that most classics are not driven over 100 miles at a time, and if you do take the long outing, a gasoline powered battery charger can extend range. The Bristol can store batteries in the two side wings as well as behind the rear seat where the gas tank goes without taking space from the passenger compartment or boot/trunk. With the side wings you could probably design a quick remove kit, so you could keep a batch of fresh batteries in the garage and swap them out in seconds. And, if you are looking for cheap batteries, a friend of mine put a wind generator in his home on a micro-island in Rhode Island, and he bought a room full of used batteries from a nuclear power plant. Apparently they are required to replace them on a schedule, even though they have plenty of life left in them. Just another idea to throw into the mix. Cheers Claude
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13-02-10, 04:49 PM
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quote
Having said that, there may be another direction for you to go. Electric. Check out the electric car conversion business, and you find it is not all microcars. Ford and Chevy made pickup trucks that ran about 100 miles on a charge. The motor part is easy and small - it will fit into the drive bay, and typically uses a manual transmission. The battery part is the weight and cost, but a lot of this depends on range. Once installed, maintenance is far less. ---------------------------------------------------------------- They are not all locked up !!
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13-02-10, 08:59 PM
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New 403 owner
Hal,
If you have got plenty of money, there is another alternative. Recently there are new heads being made for the Bristol 2-litre block. Stewart Banks designed them and has apparently already sold four. They are being sold by Jaye Engineering and they are about GBP 7100 + vat including valves and springs. They are designed to be used with hot camshafts etc. to cope with 160 bhp, but nothing to stop you selecting a cooler camshaft. Stewart Banks is +44 1604 830879 and Peter Jaye is +44 1908 551467. IN racing ( Ian Nuttal Racing ) is producing a new block of 2.5 litres. This will mate with Stewart Banks' new head or a standard Bristol head. Will be about GBP 8000 + vat. Speak to Peter Jaye. These details are accurate as far as I know. I wish I had the money to buy these as a present fo my 403 ! Good luck. Dave Dale.
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14-02-10, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
http://www.bristolcars.info/forums/6...istol-6-a.html http://www.bristolcars.info/forums/6...ice-parts.html Quote:
Quote:
 Hal, just in case you are wondering why some people might say they haven't seen the photos you uploaded with your first post, it's because they are communicating with the forum by email. I wish you luck with the car, but I really think it would be far cheaper in the long run to buy one that has already been done, or buy one that at the very least has it's original power train. Last edited by Kevin H; 14-02-10 at 10:01 AM. Reason: should have been 406Special !
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14-02-10, 09:13 AM
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HAL - Put your email question on BEEF so you get more ideas / answers -Greg
Quote: Originally Posted by Hal Greg, I really really like the 402 idea, especially since its a very glamerous looking design. But is it possible and how and who could do the cabriolet conversion. Hal Yep , it's possible and has been done once or twice. Lots of coach trimmers could do it. It is relatively simple due to the strong chassis. Go and look at a 402 to see where to chop etc Best if you look on the chassis list on the BOC and contact someone that has done it for advise. Even with an imposter engine an imposter 402 would sell for good money. I remember when I saw a 405 in about the same condition as yours. There was a spares or repair SAAB 900 convertible for sale with a good electric hood for £300 near my house -- that set my mind wondering !. Maybe someone on the BEEF site has done it. Greg
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14-02-10, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
However, wherever Hal asks his questions I can't really see that he will get different answers. The fact that his restoration doesn't stack up economically is inescapable. Looking at the photos, the car clearly needs a fair bit of work. It would be astonishing if it could be just reassembled, 3rd party engine and gearbox installed and body resprayed. At the end of the day there's only ever going to be a limited market for a Bristol with non original power train and the value would be considerably less than than an original car. I know it's not all about value, but I also know from experience it's not a good feeling knowing that you have pumped a huge amount of money into a car that can never be recouped, even when you have no intention of selling it in the foreseeable future. To know that before you even start, but still go ahead with it is madness (IMHO). It's not like it's the last 403 in the world
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14-02-10, 10:34 AM
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OOps - sorry about the BEEF thing Kevin
I agree about the economics but I was just sugesting that if it was to go ahead a convertible or roadsters would probably be easier to sell as there is less of them and the real ones fetch high prices. The reason I didn't tackle the 405 was because of suicidal economics. It would have made a bonnie car though! Greg
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14-02-10, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
It's just making it even less original. Anyone who's done their homework would know it isn't a rinky-dink original 402, plus it will have the wrong engine and gearbox as well (with modifications to suit). But not only that, once the roof has been chopped off you wouldn't even be able to convert it back to proper 403.
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