Radiator Coolant

[UK6]

Hello fellow Bristol Enthusiasts.
I write to you seeking advice on what is the best coolant to run in my old 400 motor. I have just had some minor corrosion repairs effected to my cylinder head and I would like to keep my cooling system healthy.
At present I plan on running demineralised water with perhaps a cupfull of good old soluble oil courtesy of the liquid component of "Bar's Leaks" - I won't tip in the solids.

Are there any better options out there?
I am definately not going to run glycol mixtures.

Regards,

Brett B.

[ozy]

Hi Brett,

I would not use deionised water for three reasons, first due to cost, second due to necessity - it brings no value as the moment it circulates in engine block and radiator it is no longer deionised, and third, because it can do damage.

To explain the third point you need to understand what happens in the deionisation process - using an ion exchange resin, the metal cation contaminants are replaced with protons ( H+), which will have the corrosive effect of a weak acid hence causing the problems you wish to avoid.

If you live in a hard water area and are worried about dissolved hard water salts and cost doesn't matter then you need source DISTILLED water instead of deionised.

The Barrs leak is a good idea as a palliative treatment - after all it's been around for years and is very effective, I would bung the solid in as well as the liquid carrier. Using antifreeze is not a problem providing you use a glycol based product - some cheaper antifreezes use methanol as a freezing point depressor which can have the same effect as a weak acid - or deionised water. You can check this by rerading the CHIPS symbols and componenets listing on the side of the antifreeze bottle.

I would stick with using Bluecol combined with tap water/distilled water at recommended concentration for a temp min of -12 deg C .
Hoping this helps,

Ozy

[UK6]

RE RADIATOR FLUID

Thanks for your advice Ozy.
The distinction you make between deionised and distilled water is an
interesting point - I will run distilled water.
I am not convinced that I need to run glycol mixtures in the West and hence
I seek some advice on running a suitable inhibitor for our iron/alu engines.
Are there any other enthusiasts going down this track?

Further, would the addition of a recovery tank be a good idea to minimise
oxidation and retain the vital fluid? If so, I recall that the early Range
Rovers had a nice small brass overflow tank. Are there any other suitable
options for our period cars?

Yours in motoring,

Brett B.

[ozy]

Brett,

Using distilled water alone is not a good idea. Proprietary antifreezes use an inhibitor, thought to be a multi-dentate complex - I don't know what is used. You need that inhibitor to prevent the corrosion which is not due to atmosheric oxygen dissolved in the water as some believe. In the '50's the inhibitor was borax or a borate salt but performance was found poor in repressing electrochemical reactions once we started to see exotic alu heads on iron blocks.

An expansion tank is always a good idea, glancing through the classic motoring comics on a recent visit to Asda ( I'm too imporverished to buy them), I saw an ad for some great accesories, one of which was a nice and reasonably priced stainless steel header tank. Try Practical Classics to see if it's in the latest edition.

HTH

Ozy

[Kevin H]

If you want to stay original-ish, the V8 Bristols had an expansion tank, at least my 411 does anyway. It is a cylinder about 12" long and about 4" in diameter from memory, made of brass I suspect.

Regards,
Kevin

[Richard]

An expansion tank is always a good idea

What would be the advantage of fitting one to a 6 cyl car and has anyone done it?

Richard

[Rubbond]

If I remember correctly, the V-12 Jaguar engine has aluminium cylinder
heads.
Surely any main dealer's service department would know which coulant to use?

[406Special]

Kevin,

The brass cylinder you describe was supplied by Spencer Lane Jones
directly to BCL as a better alternative - greater capacity and made
from a used artillery shell.

The obvious benefit of an expansion tank, especially in a pressurised
environment like the V8 is that sometimes, due to many factors,
specifically heat, the water will expand out of the engine, out of
the radiator and into the expansion tank and out of the overflow pipe
onto the ground - lost forever. If the expansion tank does not have
sufficient capacity then when the water cools (after you switch off
or go fast enough for the radiator to work efficiently, the reverse
pressure (as water contracts) will suck in AIR and not WATER. This
is why many older V8's with the plastic or small metal overflow tank
are useless as during hot summers the water expands more than the
contents of the tank, hence always looking like you lose water -
which you do, unless of course you have a decent sized one like
Kevin's. No pun intended.

Clyde

I pick up my Volvo Penta 2.5 litre short block this week to give my
new special a boost in low down grunt.

[geo]

The one on my 412 was made of steel (only the pipe connections were
brass) and corroded rather badly (eventually leaking). I saw a local
(to Isleworth) 412 where the owner had had made a replica in
Stainless - a catering utensils company had made it for him at fairly
modest cost.

As to the 6-cylinder cars, I have wondered about this with a couple
of non-Bristols. It would be useful if someone with a better grip on
the chemistry could reply to this, but to my mind, with a non-sealed
system all the expansion bottle would be doing would be to collect
the coolant that expanded and with such a system, the coolant would
be exposed to the atmosphere and would still deteriorate at the same
fast rate. Those who know better, please give the true answer?

The last time I read an article on different types of
anti-freeze/coolant additive, the conclusion seemed to be that if one
used distilled water roughly 1:1 with a top-quality antifreeze in a
closed cooling system, then one might expect it to last far in excess
of 3 years. The further suggestion was that 100% antifreeze (if it
did not find weaknesses in the system) would exceed 5 years. Although
it was a good article in other ways, these final estimates were
somewhat lacking in evidential support, alas.

George

[RGSchmitt]

Hi all -

There are "modern" coolants better than glycol. I've had Dex-Cool in
my Imperial/Mopar engine for "a long time" - it still is clear and
there's no signs of corrosion. Of course, not much aluminum in this engine.

This is the original formula Dex-Cool. It's been re-formulated
because of some complaints and is sold in the US by
Zerex/Valvoline. Their website states:

GM DEX-COOL Approved Protection for up to 5 years / 150,000 miles
Organic Acid Technology (OAT) minimizes corrosion inhibitor depletion
Patented formula contains no silicates, phosphates, borates, nitrates
or amines
Excellent rust and corrosion protection
Helps prevent boil-overs and freeze-ups
Protects all cooling system metals including aluminum

Surely there must be something similar available outside the US that
will inhibit aluminum corrosion better than distilled water.

Bob

[Richard]

What about Evans NPG coolant? Their website, http://evanscooling.com/main22.htm claims it as a cure-all for all ills including overheating since it boils at 190°C. It is a non-aqueous propylene glycol coolant, apparently non-corrosive and non-toxic. I think it is available in the UK, try ebay.
Anyone used it or have experience with it?

Richard

[Bellerophon]

For what it is worth, Jaguar Cars used Barrs Leaks from new on all there XK
six cylinder engines as standard.
Also, Borax type antifreeze was made to a BS spec. type C which was only
used by the Army, we tended to use the old Bluecol type A, but this would cause
the engine to run hotter in the warm weather.

The modern antifreezes which are standard in all new cars produced are to a
higher performance and should cover all applications with no problems.

My regards,
Bellerophon

[geo]

Originally Posted by RGSchmitt

Hi all -

I've had Dex-Cool in
my Imperial/Mopar engine for "a long time" -

This is the original formula Dex-Cool. It's been re-formulated
because of some complaints and is sold in the US by
Zerex/Valvoline. Their website states:

GM DEX-COOL Approved Protection for up to 5 years / 150,000 miles
Organic Acid Technology (OAT) minimizes corrosionBob

Thanks Bob, but on the other hand, a respected US consumer site suggests a rather different picture with regard to both corrosion and GM approving Dex-Cool?
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news0...m_dexcool.html

Geo

[RGSchmitt]

Hi all -

Thanks - I know about the Dex-Cool complaints, but only can relate my
experiences. I flushed my cooling system and put in Dex-Cool March,
1997 (!!). The car gets serviced by a very good independent shop run
by a former GM service manager and he has raised no cautions.

Next time I take out the Imperial, I'll take a photo of the
coolant. Last time I looked, it was clear and bright orange. Many
will think I'm an idiot for leaving the coolant in for 11 years, but
I've likely done far more stupid acts in the last 11 years...

Bob

PS We're headed up to Monterey next Friday, a full week before the
regular events. We'll go to the "pre-historic" vintage races (no
admission), the Carmel "street" concours and a few wineries. This
year we're skipping the glitz, but I think we'll still get a good
"car fix". Also will be driving an obscure route.

[UK6]

RADIATOR COOLANT CONT.

Hello Forum,
Thank you for your advice re Radiator Coolant.
I have just returned from chatting with the foreman of my local Jaguar
workshop in Western Australia. The shop uses and recommends Castrol
"Radi-Cool" for all their Jags. The following technical data on the side of
the container reads as follows:
The "Radi-Cool" comes in either concentrated or premixed form.
The pre mixed coolant contains 33% ethylene glycol and 10mg/kg of denatonum
benzoate - max bp elevation 109 degrees C (no mention of corresponding
pressure). Further, the coolant exceeds the Aust. Corrosion Studies Standard
(AS 2108.1) and has a 3yr /60 000km service life - approx $22/5L in Aust.

I note that Castrol also produces an inhibitor called "Radi-Cool" as well.
The Radi-Cool inhibitor comes in 200mL containers, 45% of which (not sure if
it is by vol or mass) is glycol and contains benzoate as well.
One can or approx $5 Aust. worth will treat a small cooling system.
I suspect that the inhibitor composition is very similar if not the same as
the coolant except for the glycol percentage. The note on the side of the
inhibitor container states that the inhibitor can be mixed with the Castrol
Radi-Cool coolant.

In summary, I feel that the best prescription for my cooling system is
either the Castrol inhibitor+ distilled water or 33% premixed Castrol
coolant if I want a degree (excuse the pun) of bp elevation.
It's nice to know that I can mix either freely if I change my mind and
require a higher bp afforded by the 33% glycol mixture.
I need to build a new radiator, so I will include the necessary fittings to
feed a semi sealed fluid recovery tank. I will take the jag shop foreman's
advice and change the coolant at least every two years. Irrespective of the
brand of coolant/inhibitor, I believe that this last point is probably the
most important.

Regards to all,

Brett Boughton

Ps Bob S. If you bump into Jack Perkins and the Bristol Warrior whilst at
Monterey, could you kindly give him my regards and thank him for championing
my dad's old car - would love to see some contemporary snaps of the Warrior
and similar if you have time.

[RGSchmitt]

Brett -

If I find the Bristol Warrior at the Monterey "pre-historics" I'll
definitely take photos and look for its crew. I'be previously heard
there will be a pre-war Frazer Nash there, so it's also on the list.

Bob