Bristol: The Inside Story

[Kevin H]

I have copied Claude's post to a new thread titled Book Publishing in the Other Topics of Interest forum for those interested in discussing the vagaries of book publishing (and authoring).

[geo]

Originally Posted by Claude

Kevin, I'm not sure you understand how Amazon does business. They take a huge commission for listing a book. In many cases books now are print-on-demand where they never actually touch the book,
Claude

What Claude points out is true and, of course, many of the Amazon listed titles never actually make it to the market place. In this case, Christopher Balfour's book was commissioned by Haynes, so it will be produced in the conventional way. Perhaps the delay and uncertainty about the publication date is occasioned by Haynes selling some of their 'non-core'- book printing to JF Print Ltd. Actually, this is the book I mentioned in a posting of last Oct./November under the heading 'Crook/Silverton Postulation', when I saw the finished final draft the anticipated publication was early 2009. I should remain sceptical about the exact date when it will appear as although Amazon states Oct. 2009, these times are highly unreliable and it does not appear at all on the Haynes forthcoming titles pages.

The details of the book as quoted by Amazon look like the type of blurb that the author would have had to supply to Haynes.

Originally Posted by Claude

after everyone has taken their cut, the author earns very little - if they write books for dollars they would better work flipping burgers for McDonalds.

Claude

Tell me about it! What many do not realize is that with titles like this, it does not look too bad when the cheque for the advance comes in, but of course, nothing else follows this for some time as any commission earned by the author is set off against the advance payment until the day when that sum has been covered by the number of sales.

From conversations with Christopher Balfour I believe he has done his utmost to justify all that he has included (and has interviewed the principals in the tale), but even with access to extant records, the author has to decide upon a level of interpretation. We discussed how difficult it is to establish the undeniable 'facts' when writing in this genre.

From my own experience, doing a slim volume for Shire on The Rover was relatively straightforward for the initial edition (other than the picture being painted by British Aerospace was a very rose-tinted-spectacles one), rather more tricky with the second edition as I just did not believe what I was being told by the BMW people at Gaydon (rightly, as it turned out!), and having had to write a new ending for the book prior to the expensive and long awaited enquiry into the demise of Rover (should appear in the next few days), it was a nightmare and every word had to be checked by the publisher's solicitors — this resulted in many phrases having to be toned down for fear of libel.

Even when the principals are happy to co-operate, things can change. For example, I had the complete co-operation of the current Lord Rootes when doing a book on the Imp and had a copy of the privately-published autobiography of his father (published for the consumption of the extended family). When inspecting the contemporaneous cabinet papers (especially notes to and from the Prime Minister of the day and his Chancellor of the exchequer) it became clear that the preservation of the Rootes' family fortune was being handled at the highest level. This played an important part in the demise of the eponymous motor manufacturer, but as one might reasonably expect, this was not a topic that any of the current family were happy to discuss.

The other obvious problem, and one that Balfour encountered, was significant person A says this (and supplies a snippet of evidence), B contradicts it, and C comes up with a totally different version, but again with some evidence. I recall trying to find out about the different types of automatic gearbox envisaged or used in the Imp — both the engineering designer and the styling people denied that this was ever an idea. Then one day an archivist sent me photocopies of the tests on the pre-production prototypes and invited me to go and photograph the only remaining extant automatic gearbox! Somehow, it had been spirited out of the factory when the project was dropped and he had acquired it some years later. This sort of evidence is sadly rare, so the author has to weigh up the balance of probabilities according to what he has been told and researched and interpret all the nuances the he or she has picked up.

It is hard work writing such books, and Christopher Balfour's seemed to me to offer an interesting read, but goodness knows why any of us do it — it certainly is not the money!

Geo

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted by Ashley James

I do think that the early history is what's needed and so far not
appeared thanks to Mr Crook's intransigence, assuming records exist.

Ash

I believe the early history is quite well documented, there are even different accounts of what happened at the beginning depending on which book you read. Mr Crook had much less influence back then, when he was first a racing car driver then one of numerous Bristol dealers.

It seemed to be only when Mr Crook became an owner of the company that the secrecy began and Bristol shunned all of it's dealers. That coincided with the beginning of the V8 cars, which is not what I would call their early history.

To my mind there are a number of distinct eras in Bristol's car making history, as follows;

1. AFN/Bristol Aeroplane Company
2. Bristol Aeroplane Company
3. Bristol Cars - White/Crook
4. Bristol Cars - Crook
5. Bristol Cars - Crook/Silverton
6. Bristol Cars - Silverton

Hopefully this new book will shed more light on eras 3,4 & 5. Production numbers would be a good starting point!

As for build sheets, I'm sure RR and Bentley had just as many if not more high profile customers as Bristol.

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted by geo

...the author has to weigh up the balance of probabilities according to what he has been told and researched and interpret all the nuances the he or she has picked up.

Geo

That's all very well, but if the author doesn't make it clear that this is his or her personal interpretation of the evidence to hand, what the author says is accepted by many readers as undisputed fact.

I would prefer the author to spell out the different accounts he or she received during the research and let the reader decide which is the true version of events.

[Ashley James]

Kevin
The RREC at the Hunt House can, for a modest sum, supply the original
build records for all their cars and it is possible sometimes to trace
subsequent owners through service records if you know where to look.
It is my understanding that Bristol cannot or will not do this and
that these records, if they exist, are with Mr Crook.
Ashley

[geo]

On the subject of objectivity and reliability of 'facts':

Originally Posted by Kevin Howard

That's all very well, but if the author doesn't make it clear that this is his or her personal interpretation of the evidence to hand, what the author says is accepted by many readers as undisputed fact.

I could not agree more with you and, to my mind, this should always be made clear by the author from the outset. There are, of course, good and bad writers!

Originally Posted by Kevin Howard

I would prefer the author to spell out the different accounts he or she received during the research and let the reader decide which is the true version of events.

From my conversation with Christopher Balfour on this problem I gather that this is what he has had to do on many occasions when definitive evidence is no longer extant and the accounts are contradictory.

In addition to Kevin's suggestion, I think the interpretation of the author has a part to play, but it must be written in such a way that it is clear to a reader that this is the personal interpretation of the author and also it needs to state the argument that leads the author to a particular conclusion.

Wearing another of my hats, I am constantly writing on the draft theses of students the words 'why?' or 'how?' as a statement without support or reasoning just leads to the situation that Kevin describes — it is in the book so it must be true! The internet, of course, is even worse in this respect as few sites have had a critical eye passed over them.

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted by geo

From my conversation with Christopher Balfour on this problem I gather that this is what he has had to do on many occasions when definitive evidence is no longer extant and the accounts are contradictory.

Sounds encouraging!

As everyone seems to have ignored my attempt to start another thread in the "Other Topics of Interest" section titled Book Publishing I shall ask the question here.

Prompted Claude and George's posts and the apparent low price and heavy discounting of Mr Balfour's new book, I was wondering who sets the recommended retail price for a new book?

And do the Author or Publisher have any say about discounting, particularly pre launch?

[TLF799R]

The retailer decides the actual price of the book, the publisher
"suggests" a price on the book but these days that is very rarely taken seriously.
The retailer buys the book at retail minus a percentage (usually 40% but
higher if you have big buying power). Nowadays you are better putting a higher
set price on the book as you know it will be discounted down heavily
anyway.

In my experience the author has very little say beyond "suggestions"
initially. The life of an author is a pretty poor one unless you hit a
bestseller. Usually your advance covers the potential royalties for the print run
the publisher has printed. No one generally makes any money until you reprint
and these days that is pretty rare unless you are JK Rowling.

Philippa

[geo]

Originally Posted by Kevin Howard

I was wondering who sets the recommended retail price for a new book?

And do the Author or Publisher have any say about discounting, particularly pre launch?

In my experience, the author has none whatsoever and although the publisher claims to have influence, the cover price might be set by them, but they can do nothing to control the actual selling price of a retailer other than to prevent deliveries to that retailer — it does happen with a very few blockbusters, but not very often.

[Ashley James]

In my opinion and given the prices owners and enthusiasts pay for the
less than satisfactory offerings currently available, Haynes was not
the best choice because it will undervalue the book and the car.
Far better to approach Palawan (I think that is the name) and produce
a limited edition leather bound job with top quality photos and as
much carefully checked detail as possible.
Prices of early cars are rising steeply at the moment, as collectors
hoover up early post war sporting cars for the more prestigious events
and BCL are rebuilding V8s to customers requirements for substantial
amounts.
After years of neglect and an odd image, Bristol is finding its place
in History and a posh book would, as it has for other key marques and
models, have been the ticket. As it is I suspect the Haynes will
struggle to sell more than 500-1000 copies, so better to let Palawan
do as many for three or four times the price.
Haynes have published several poorly researched "coffee table" books
over the years and it has tarnished their image IMO.
Ashley

[jimfoz]

Problem is there has already been a posh book published on Bristol in the form of the £300-600 LJKS leather bound book with pretty pictures. This wasn't published that long ago.

I can see the author's reasoning when he decided to go for a book which would appeal to those on less of a budget especially in the 'current economic climate'

[Sam410]

Originally Posted by Ashley James

IAs it is I suspect the Haynes will
struggle to sell more than 500-1000 copies, so better to let Palawan
do as many for three or four times the price.

I think that the last thing we need is another overpriced, slow-selling, niche book like the recent Palawan edition. I don't own a copy and have no plans to acquire one. While I'm sure it is a lovely object (although I'm aware that it is not itself completely error-free), it is simply too expensive for most people. I think the market for a sensibly priced, well researched and well written book will be larger than you suggest, among both Bristol owners and non-owners. The prices currently paid for long out of print books clearly show that there is no shortage of pent-up demand for a new title dealing with the marque.

[Peter.Kent]

I have a Jaguar 4.2 E type series 1 1/2 parked in my garage at present and
I have been reading the Haynes "Definitive Guide. It's a mine of
information about the E type and it's not badly written. I don't know what
today's price is (mine is borrowed) but it looks cheaply produced and I
guess the cost is about the same as the proposed book on the Bristol.

When I say "cheaply produced" that is not a criticism. It does what it says
on the tin but is not a coffee table book has such., I am sure they have had
many sales. If the Bristol book is as good then "bring it on.
Now, you ask, what about this E type? A friend has bought it from a widow of
the original owner to get it out of her garage. I have been making it
roadworthy again (needed an MOT not having been driven for a couple of
years) and generally taking an interest. What a beautiful shape! (It's the
coupe (NOT 2+2)). Many criticise Bristol as having sketchy engineering
because it is such small-scale. Look under the skin of the Jag and all
manner of horrors are revealed. To drive? It's good for my biceps (no power
steering). The gearbox is a handful. Heavy clutch. Having to stop quickly
from 80 mph revealed the need for powerful legs muscles ... both feet
needed!. Straight-line oomph? Lovely noises and it keeps up with the traffic
but not as quick as the Bristol I think. Handling? Not tried on the limit
but the reputation is iffy. I'm not swapping it for the Bristol! Peter

[Kevin H]

I'm a big fan of Palawan's books, but I feel a more accessible, good book about Bristols would be a beneficial to the marque. But when I say accessible, I don't mean it should be so cheap people might question the value of the content!

To illustrate the point I have listed below some other new Haynes books which are available for pre order on Amazon.com;

Shelby Cars in Detail by Frank Barrett
Buy new: $164.13 - pre order price $163.38

Porsche 917: The Complete Photographic History by Glen Smale
Buy new: $150.00 pre order price $94.50

Rolls-Royce and Bentley: The Crewe Years (3rd Edition) by Martin Bennett Buy new: $130.00 pre order price $81.90

Alvis: The Story of the Red Triangle (4th Edition) by Kenneth Day
Buy new: $90.00 pre order price $65.70

Ferrari: Men from Maranello: The biographical A-Z of all significant Ferrari racing people by Anthony Pritchard
Buy new: $70.00 pre order price $44.10

bringing up the rear ....

Bristol: The Inside Story by Christopher Balfour
Buy new: $62.95 pre order price $39.66

Clearly Amazon discount everything from Haynes, although the first book on the list is discounted by less than a dollar, but why is the Bristol book so cheap?

By comparison the Haynes Ford Fiesta Petrol and Diesel Service and Repair Manual: 2002 to 2008 is more expensive at $46.85!

[Claude]

Originally Posted by TLF799R

In my experience the author has very little say beyond "suggestions"
initially. The life of an author is a pretty poor one unless you hit a
bestseller. Usually your advance covers the potential royalties for the print run
the publisher has printed. No one generally makes any money until you reprint
and these days that is pretty rare unless you are JK Rowling.

Philippa

In the hope that there are budding authors on this forum, I repeat what I have written about before: the world of publishing is changing before our eyes, and the cards held by the middleman (the industry that sits between the writer - author, and the reader - customer) are getting weaker by the moment.

The book industry is about the big release and the fast sale. Print on Demand is changing this, and now there is a new industry known as 'the long tail'. What this means is a book, CD or video may have a burst of buying at the beginning, but then will continue to sell a few units a month... for years. The traditional industry has no interest in the long tail because the units physically occupy warehouse space, and the value of the shelf exceeds the profits of the item.

With POD, the item occupies a few megabytes of disk at a time when disk in volume is becoming absurdly cheap. With POD the actual copy is printed, or in the case of a CD/DVD - burned, only after someone has ordered a copy. Books are printed on a huge machine that does 800 pages a minute, print, bind, package and ship out the door.

Suddenly, the author no longer needs a publisher. Between the writer and the reader lies low-cost technology rather than complicated manual publicity and distribution system. Instead, the author needs marketing which in today's internet & media world may mean Twitter, Facebook, a mention on Oprah rather than making the NY Times book review.

In the case of marketing a new book on Bristols, I wager 90% of the market can be reached using the forums, the clubs and the few companies that specialise in Bristols. The reason to use Haynes is vanishing by the day.

For the author who follows this route, profits come to his or her bank account, and they promise to be larger provided the author prices the book right, and the author writes a book people want to buy.

This is a new industry, and it is changing every day. This year Espresso was released... go into a coffeeshop, select a book from a screen, and it is printed there and then. Amazon is pushing Kindle, an electronic book.

Publishing companies are aware of the changes, and many will go out of business as their expertise is rendered obsolete.

If it all goes well, authors can expect their earnings to begin to reflect the value of their works... although one can also expect there will be a whole lot more authors in the world, where the new products will be those that find the gems among the rubbish.

Claude

[Kevin H]

I can see that POD (Print On Demand) may have a place in the world of educational text books on obscure topics, reference books such as dictionaries and thesaurus, novels (at the right price), or other disposable works, but I can't see the publishers of automotive history books being worried that POD will put them out of business any time soon.

When I look at my shelves of automotive books with their many different sizes, the weight of the paper and the quality of the printing, I can't really imagine them being replaced by books laser printed on 80gsm paper, with print quality that goes with that process.

That doesn't mean that I wouldn't buy the new Bristol book if it were a POD book, but I would still buy the next Bristol book printed by conventional means and sold at two or three times the price.

To my mind POD will only supplant traditional publishers if people who appreciate books for their aesthetic qualities as well as the content are a dying breed.

[Ashley James]

Hence my suggestion that Palawan might be a better place for an
authoritative book with useful photographs of original cars in it.
Otherwise the information is best disseminated via the web and the
wiki.

I recently visited Haynes Museum and looked through their books and I
wasn't overly impressed, the place needs modernising and some new ideas.

Ashley

[Claude]

Originally Posted by Kevin Howard

When I look at my shelves of automotive books with their many different sizes, the weight of the paper and the quality of the printing, I can't really imagine them being replaced by books laser printed on 80gsm paper, with print quality that goes with that process.

Umm, how do I politely say, Kevin, that your lack of knowledge in this area is showing? For example, consider this snip from one of our several POD suppliers...

Lightning Source Paper (one of their several choices in paper):
-------------
Color: Accent Opaque White
Brightness: 96
WT: 70#
PPI: 385
Opacity: 96
Finish: Smooth
Virgin Fiber - no recycle content
This paper is acid free and lignin free. It meets all ANSI standards for archival quality paper.
-------------
I believe their 70 pound paper is equal to about 110 gsm. Whatever the actual number, the paper is the same as the high quality traditional paper we use.

Same company, size specs
-------------
Perfect sizes - 12
5 x 8, 5.06 x 7.81, 5.5 x 8.5, 5.83 x 8.27, 6 x 9, 6.14 x 9.21, 6.69 x 9.61, 7.44 x 9.69, 7.5 x 9.25, 7 x 10, 8.25 x 11, 8.268 x 11.69
Case Laminate sizes - 4
5.5 x 8.5, 6 x 9, 6.14 x 9.21, 7 x 10.
Cloth sizes - 3
5.5 x 8.5, 6 x 9, 6.14 x 9.21.
Jacketed sizes - 3
5.5 x 8.5, 6 x 9, 6.14 x 9.21.
--------------
Note: that other POD companies do much larger books as well as unusual sizes

POD print quality is now indistinguishable from traditional book print. Indeed in the last large colour-book run my publishing company did, we were rather frustrated that the traditional print job - from one of the most reputable printing companies in the business - came back inferior to the print-on-demand... and it took 3 months and twenty thousand dollars before we realised it. Yes they will rerun the job at their cost, but we will have to pay the dock & customs charges twice... and they are substantial

We have done art books, probably the most demanding of all publications using POD - full colour on coated paper, archival quality and outstanding... and more importantly, accurate, colour reproduction.

We use traditional printing because it is cheaper when we know the number that will sell. But we are witnessing a wholesale change in the market, where in 2009 POD is going mainstream. With companies like Lightning Source (that only sells to the trade and does not have a retail order entry), consumers may have no idea they just purchased a POD.

When you speak of 80 gsm paper using laser printing, you are not talking about real POD, which uses million dollar huge machines running an entirely different process. It's like comparing a Cessna 172 to a Boeing 737. Different industry.

The business case for the many different sized automotive books on your shelf cannot stand up to POD. Enjoy what is on your shelf, for sooner than we may think, much of it is mostly likely to go the way of engraved business and calling cards.

Claude

[Bellerophon]

Having been the co-author of a few books, the best known being The
Illustrated Encyclopedia of Motorcycles, I can tell you about our experience with
the publisher Hamyln.
They asked us to write the book which was printed in Hong Kong, however
there were several printing errors
which we pointed out, alas, they said the book is selling very well and we
seen no reason to change anything, we could do nothing.
Subsequently, the publishing rights were sold on several times with each
time a new addition being released, however, the last time all reference to
myself and all the other people who had a credits were removed.
So all I can tell you is that if your work is to be produced over seas be
very careful, as you can find that you have no control whatsoever.
The best of luck to all prospective authors.
My regards,
Bellerophon

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted by Claude

Umm, how do I politely say, Kevin, that your lack of knowledge in this area is showing?

I don't profess to be an expert Claude. The extent of my knowledge of POD is reading a few "whether POD is right for you" articles, probably written by people who had a vested interest in the old way!

If it now matches the quality of traditional printing then you are right, there are interesting times ahead in publishing. Presumably it's probably only a matter of time before the big publishers start using POD for specialist books, if they aren't already.

As a self publishing author does POD change the challenge of marketing your book and getting retailers to sell it?

I guess not having to spend tens of thousands of dollars on your first print run would help because you could use those funds to market the book. I can see that POD would be suited to some genres more than others.