Bristol: The Inside Story

[jimfoz]

Firstly I agree with the others who have defended the author in relation to the unfair comments. I for one look forward to receiving my copy and making my own judgement!

Also, why, just because it is a Bristol book, does it have to cost hundreds of pounds to be considered any good? The amount of illustrations and research in a book doesn't always mean that it is automatically selling at a high price and a low price doesn't mean it will automatically be a poor book. A friend of mine who wrote an enormously concise and detailed biography of Mike Hawthorn last year, spent many hundreds of hours researching interviewing and sanctioning one-off illustrations. His well illustrated 450page book was only selling for between £45 and £60 a copy.

I seem to remember the Oxley book wasn't that expensive when first published. However due to Bristol being quite a niche marque in terms of mass interest, I imagine only very few copies were sold, hence the enormous prices they fetch now on ebay.

The fact this new Bristol book is by such a large publisher as Haynes means that it will naturally be lower priced than some of the 'boutique' publishing companies who publish leather bound tomes for hundreds of pounds. As well as their hardbacked technical manuals for Ford Fiestas, Haynes do publish some well-printed and well-bound books in their more expensive ranges.

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted by jimfoz

Firstly I agree with the others who have defended the author in relation to the unfair comments.

I merely expressed my skepticism about a Bristol book marketed by Amazon.com as "The Inside Story" which has been discounted by over 50% many months ahead of it's launch (I have pre ordered the book at $39.66 or £24).

Given the old adage "You get what you pay for", I don't see that as "unfair".

Having absolutely no knowledge of the author, that level of discounting suggest to me that either the publisher has no idea about marketing and perceived value pricing, or they don't have much confidence in the book.

I'm not suggesting that it should cost hundreds of pounds, but given the current alternatives for people seeking books on Bristols, £50 should be easily achievable. If it really does contain old photographs and information that has never been seen before, then a higher price tag may well have been justified.

I sincerely hope that the new book is very good, and that it turns out to be an absolute bargain!

[Claude]

Originally Posted by Kevin Howard

I merely expressed my skepticism about a Bristol book marketed by Amazon.com as "The Inside Story" which has been discounted by over 50% many months ahead of it's launch (I have pre ordered the book at $39.66 or £24).

Given the old adage "You get what you pay for", I don't see that as "unfair".

Having absolutely no knowledge of the author, that level of discounting suggest to me that either the publisher has no idea about marketing and perceived value pricing, or they don't have much confidence in the book.

I'm not suggesting that it should cost hundreds of pounds, but given the current alternatives for people seeking books on Bristols, £50 should be easily achievable. If it really does contain old photographs and information that has never been seen before, then a higher price tag may well have been justified.

I sincerely hope that the new book is very good, and that it turns out to be an absolute bargain!

Kevin, I'm not sure you understand how Amazon does business. They take a huge commission for listing a book. In many cases books now are print-on-demand where they never actually touch the book, it gets shipped from a subsidiary printer. Then they apply a large discount from that large cut they take, meaning they make it very difficult for the traditional book store to compete since they get their margin on the list price... and they have to order it, stock it and sell it over the counter.

The discount has nothing to do with the value of the book, it's what happens when Amazon attains market dominance. In most cases after everyone has taken their cut, the author earns very little - if they write books for dollars they would better work flipping burgers for McDonalds.

Claude

[Kevin H]

I have copied Claude's post to a new thread titled Book Publishing in the Other Topics of Interest forum for those interested in discussing the vagaries of book publishing (and authoring).

[geo]

Originally Posted by Claude

Kevin, I'm not sure you understand how Amazon does business. They take a huge commission for listing a book. In many cases books now are print-on-demand where they never actually touch the book,
Claude

What Claude points out is true and, of course, many of the Amazon listed titles never actually make it to the market place. In this case, Christopher Balfour's book was commissioned by Haynes, so it will be produced in the conventional way. Perhaps the delay and uncertainty about the publication date is occasioned by Haynes selling some of their 'non-core'- book printing to JF Print Ltd. Actually, this is the book I mentioned in a posting of last Oct./November under the heading 'Crook/Silverton Postulation', when I saw the finished final draft the anticipated publication was early 2009. I should remain sceptical about the exact date when it will appear as although Amazon states Oct. 2009, these times are highly unreliable and it does not appear at all on the Haynes forthcoming titles pages.

The details of the book as quoted by Amazon look like the type of blurb that the author would have had to supply to Haynes.

Originally Posted by Claude

after everyone has taken their cut, the author earns very little - if they write books for dollars they would better work flipping burgers for McDonalds.

Claude

Tell me about it! What many do not realize is that with titles like this, it does not look too bad when the cheque for the advance comes in, but of course, nothing else follows this for some time as any commission earned by the author is set off against the advance payment until the day when that sum has been covered by the number of sales.

From conversations with Christopher Balfour I believe he has done his utmost to justify all that he has included (and has interviewed the principals in the tale), but even with access to extant records, the author has to decide upon a level of interpretation. We discussed how difficult it is to establish the undeniable 'facts' when writing in this genre.

From my own experience, doing a slim volume for Shire on The Rover was relatively straightforward for the initial edition (other than the picture being painted by British Aerospace was a very rose-tinted-spectacles one), rather more tricky with the second edition as I just did not believe what I was being told by the BMW people at Gaydon (rightly, as it turned out!), and having had to write a new ending for the book prior to the expensive and long awaited enquiry into the demise of Rover (should appear in the next few days), it was a nightmare and every word had to be checked by the publisher's solicitors — this resulted in many phrases having to be toned down for fear of libel.

Even when the principals are happy to co-operate, things can change. For example, I had the complete co-operation of the current Lord Rootes when doing a book on the Imp and had a copy of the privately-published autobiography of his father (published for the consumption of the extended family). When inspecting the contemporaneous cabinet papers (especially notes to and from the Prime Minister of the day and his Chancellor of the exchequer) it became clear that the preservation of the Rootes' family fortune was being handled at the highest level. This played an important part in the demise of the eponymous motor manufacturer, but as one might reasonably expect, this was not a topic that any of the current family were happy to discuss.

The other obvious problem, and one that Balfour encountered, was significant person A says this (and supplies a snippet of evidence), B contradicts it, and C comes up with a totally different version, but again with some evidence. I recall trying to find out about the different types of automatic gearbox envisaged or used in the Imp — both the engineering designer and the styling people denied that this was ever an idea. Then one day an archivist sent me photocopies of the tests on the pre-production prototypes and invited me to go and photograph the only remaining extant automatic gearbox! Somehow, it had been spirited out of the factory when the project was dropped and he had acquired it some years later. This sort of evidence is sadly rare, so the author has to weigh up the balance of probabilities according to what he has been told and researched and interpret all the nuances the he or she has picked up.

It is hard work writing such books, and Christopher Balfour's seemed to me to offer an interesting read, but goodness knows why any of us do it — it certainly is not the money!

Geo

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted by geo

...the author has to weigh up the balance of probabilities according to what he has been told and researched and interpret all the nuances the he or she has picked up.

Geo

That's all very well, but if the author doesn't make it clear that this is his or her personal interpretation of the evidence to hand, what the author says is accepted by many readers as undisputed fact.

I would prefer the author to spell out the different accounts he or she received during the research and let the reader decide which is the true version of events.

[Ashley James]

Kevin
The RREC at the Hunt House can, for a modest sum, supply the original
build records for all their cars and it is possible sometimes to trace
subsequent owners through service records if you know where to look.
It is my understanding that Bristol cannot or will not do this and
that these records, if they exist, are with Mr Crook.
Ashley

[geo]

On the subject of objectivity and reliability of 'facts':

Originally Posted by Kevin Howard

That's all very well, but if the author doesn't make it clear that this is his or her personal interpretation of the evidence to hand, what the author says is accepted by many readers as undisputed fact.

I could not agree more with you and, to my mind, this should always be made clear by the author from the outset. There are, of course, good and bad writers!

Originally Posted by Kevin Howard

I would prefer the author to spell out the different accounts he or she received during the research and let the reader decide which is the true version of events.

From my conversation with Christopher Balfour on this problem I gather that this is what he has had to do on many occasions when definitive evidence is no longer extant and the accounts are contradictory.

In addition to Kevin's suggestion, I think the interpretation of the author has a part to play, but it must be written in such a way that it is clear to a reader that this is the personal interpretation of the author and also it needs to state the argument that leads the author to a particular conclusion.

Wearing another of my hats, I am constantly writing on the draft theses of students the words 'why?' or 'how?' as a statement without support or reasoning just leads to the situation that Kevin describes — it is in the book so it must be true! The internet, of course, is even worse in this respect as few sites have had a critical eye passed over them.

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted by geo

From my conversation with Christopher Balfour on this problem I gather that this is what he has had to do on many occasions when definitive evidence is no longer extant and the accounts are contradictory.

Sounds encouraging!

As everyone seems to have ignored my attempt to start another thread in the "Other Topics of Interest" section titled Book Publishing I shall ask the question here.

Prompted Claude and George's posts and the apparent low price and heavy discounting of Mr Balfour's new book, I was wondering who sets the recommended retail price for a new book?

And do the Author or Publisher have any say about discounting, particularly pre launch?