Restore or buy restored ?

[TLF799R]

But none of you are working out the true costs!

I work in the horticulture industry and spend hours listening to people
telling me how cheaply they can grow their own plants - what they never cost in
is their time, the investment in equipment needed and the cost of the premises
they use.

If these same people (and many small businesses) costed all that in, their
costs are likely to be higher.
Talk to any serious car collector and they would never think of touching a
restoration (except in the case of a unique car) if someone else was selling a
good car where all the work had been done properly - it never makes sense.
The only point of a restoration is if you can't afford the restored car in the
first place and are happy to pay more over a period of time or else you need
something to fill your time for the next 15 years and don't really want to
drive the car!

All the best,

Philippa

[Ashley James]

What's with this fifteen years!
My 400 took less than two years, one being welded and painted the rest
to get it back together and on the road plus nearly another getting
rid of bugs. Every part of it has been rebuilt except the diff
assembly which Norman is doing now and I have a full time job as well!
In my experience serious collectors have what ever they fancy rebuilt
to the highest possible standard, simply because a bodge is not a
representation of the original, isn't going to be reliable and won't
make a good price. A concours rebuild by an accredited specialist
might make a record price and I've known quite a few that have.
Therefore I wish that someone of that calibre would takle an early
Bristol and then enter Pebble Peach or eqivalent because it would push
the value up and encourage others to do the same.
The present situation of slowly feeding engines to the racing
fraternity and trashing the cars is depressing.
Ash

[RGSchmitt]

"if someone else was selling a good car where all the work had been
done properly - it never makes sense.."

Agree, but "done properly" typically is largely unknown until the
next restoration is mostly done!

Bob

[Hydroglen]

TLF799R said;
My. My ...... But none of you are working out the true costs!

Wasn't that a sweeping statement! Well some of us or perhaps many of us do
actually work out true costs. That, is in part why it becomes impractical
from a financial perpective to restore certain cars, and they are left to
rot. Or as Ashley says, the engines are sold off as there is a ready market
for them.

Cheers
Dorien

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted by RGSchmitt

Agree, but "done properly" typically is largely unknown until the next restoration is mostly done!

Bob

Which is why completely unmolested cars often fetch a premium, depending of course on what the car is!

It is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to know what lurks beneath the sheen of a recently restored car. Every good restorer I have spoken to has horror stories about what they have found on what appear on the surface to be good cars.

Probably the only time you can take a few things for granted is if the car has been restored by people you know, like the guys at Alpine Eagle for instance.

[412usa]

The time and facilities I use to restore my cars are why I call my cars a
Hobby. The purpose of any hobby is to consume time and money and hold my
interest. My hobby does this perfectly. Not all collectors are speculators.

Peter

______________________
CURRENT MESSAGE FROM: Hydroglen

My. My ...... But none of you are working out the true costs!

Wasn't that a sweeping statement! Well some of us or perhaps many of us do
actually work out true costs. That, is in part why it becomes impractical
from a financial perpective to restore certain cars, and they are left to
rot. Or as Ashley says, the engines are sold off as there is a ready market
for them.
Cheers
Dorien

[TLF799R]

412usa said;

The time and facilities I use to restore my cars are why I call my cars a Hobby. The purpose of any hobby is to consume time and money and hold my interest. My hobby does this perfectly. Not all collectors are speculators.

That's just what I was saying - you are quite rightly looking at it as a
hobby but so many people complain about the cost of getting a car restored
professionally and compare the costs to what someone like you will incur (not
including your set up costs and times) and I'm only saying that you can't compare
the two.

We look on the costs of running and upgrading the 412 as necessary and
equivilant to depreciation of a new car. My Golf GTI and the 412 have swapped
places since we bought them. The Golf is now worth what we paid for the 412 and
the 412 is now worth 10k more than the Golf cost! That to me is a strong
argument for owning a classic. It of course only works for us as a lot of the
basic work on the 412 had already been done by BCL when we bought it and it is a
great everyday, useable car and is not sitting gathering dust.

Philippa
p.s. I'm not running anyone down if they choose to restore from scratch I
just challenge the assumption that it is the only "proper" way to have one of
these cars.

[TLF799R]

Kevin Howard said;

Every good restorer I have spoken to has horror stories about what they have found on what appear on the surface to be good cars.

Funny how these horror stories are usually about their rivals though - or am I just being cynical???

Philippa

[Kevin H]

This is a continuation of a thread about 6 cyl Bristol engine replacements that morphed into a general discussion about restoration.

Originally Posted by TLF799R

Kevin Howard said;

Every good restorer I have spoken to has horror stories about what they have found on what appear on the surface to be good cars.

Funny how these horror stories are usually about their rivals though - or am I just being cynical???

Philippa

To answer your question Philippa, yes I believe you are just being cynical.

I'm talking about instances where a car has come in for restoration, often just after being purchased and as the restorer starts to get into it he finds all sorts of bodges perpetrated by past owners, mechanics, body shops or whatever. Rarely are they pointing the finger at someone else, because they have no idea who has done the work.

I have seen some of this stuff with my own eyes. One of the most memorable was a Jensen interceptor with part of an inner wheel arch made of paper/cardboard mache, painted black and smothered with underseal.

On a DB6 I bought, beneath the new stainless battery tray which was riveted to the boot floor, there was a gaping hole where the floor had completely rotted away.

There are also mechanical bodges which are often impossible to spot without dismantling. Any reconditioned engine needs to be treated with suspicion unless there are some detailed records of what was done along with specifics about machining measurements and replacement parts used.

The problem is, many of us have never driven a really top notch example of the classic car we are looking at buying so it can be difficult to know what a good one feels like.

Kevin

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted by TLF799R

Talk to any serious car collector and they would never think of touching a restoration (except in the case of a unique car) if someone else was selling a good car where all the work had been done properly <snip>

All the best,

Philippa

In my experience many "serious car collectors" do quite the opposite. They restore every car they buy, sometimes including cars that don't look like they need restoring!

Which again is why some original barn find cases of valuable classics will fetch more money at auction than a road going example with an amateurish restoration.

The problem is, they're only original once

[RGSchmitt]

Philippa -

I saw several examples of "the horrors" at two shops in NZ and have
photos. How about expansion foam shot between the support beams and
roof of a old panel truck being stripped to bare steel? Because the
foam was orange, not hard to spot! Also much bondo.

Other - every bit of steel on a '70s Corvette was rusty under the new
paint, stripped off, of a car bought as "fully restored".

Bob

______________________
PREVIOUS MESSAGE FROM: TLF799R

Every good restorer I have spoken to has horror stories about what they have
found on what appear on the surface to be good cars.
Funny how these horror stories are usually about their rivals though - or am
I just being cynical???

Philippa

[Hydroglen]

Re the comment about "the hobby is to consume time and money and hold interest" , most collectors weigh the pros and cons of a particular car against their ability and finances. How else could they do it? That does not make them speculators, or how would one define a speculator?

I recently bought a complete extra fuselage with logbooks for my vintage plane. It is a rare item and I am concerned about future parts availability and prices. Does that make me a speculator? Maybe it does....but then most collectors end up with extra bits and parts. In some cases one could be accused of hoarding parts and depriving other collectors of needed parts.

I would agree that the purpose of a hobby is to hold ones interest. How much time and money, becomes a personal one. As can be seen from some of these posts, and in other circles, there are many ways to acheive this, and if it satisfies that person, then that purpose has been met.
Some people like to prepare for Pebble Beach, others enjoy a barn find, perhaps a bit of hot rodding or something in between.
I am fortunate to have some very nice cars, but my favorite is my 1934 Indy car. I have been racing it in vintage events for some 30 + years. Nowadays with a more hectic lifestyle, I race it less..... some years only once a year. Some collectors wonder that my favorite car is scarcely used. I get immense pleasure just looking at it and remembering the races and excitement we have shared and plans for future events. The collecting hobby takes many turns.
Cheers
Dorien

Originally Posted by 412usa

The time and facilities I use to restore my cars are why I call my cars a
Hobby. The purpose of any hobby is to consume time and money and hold my
interest. My hobby does this perfectly. Not all collectors are speculators.

Peter

______________________
CURRENT MESSAGE FROM: Hydroglen

My. My ...... But none of you are working out the true costs!

Wasn't that a sweeping statement! Well some of us or perhaps many of us do
actually work out true costs. That, is in part why it becomes impractical
from a financial perpective to restore certain cars, and they are left to
rot. Or as Ashley says, the engines are sold off as there is a ready market
for them.
Cheers
Dorien

[406Special]

Interesting how this thread has evolved. I have spent 24 hrs traveling away from home to deep south central Spain to go on my email to read a lot more than expected. I think we all agree anyone undertaking a restoration without full understanding of what may lie ahead and what unknowns may be found when stripping back paint, sealant and carpets, is misguided to quote Dorien. We all agree that to acquire a fully restored or decent well cared for unit may cost a lot less than undertaking a restoration, Bristols specifically.

However if you are not misguided, want a finished article which will not require expensive rework, then the only way to do it, as my father was heard to say on many occasions, was do it properly or not at all. Using myself as an example, not of a wealthy money no object collector, I know within +- 10 what it will cost as I did stacks of research and comparisons before I started, new what I wanted to achieve and based on my vision set about starting from the best and cheapest base I could find. Stripping completely allows you to either be totally confident that not much can go wrong later, or it can be fixed so it won't - for a long time at least. I am getting all of my 406 Special work done by good reputable specialists who are reasonable and excellent value, not extortionate and less than if I applied my time. I do what I can and where weekends allow, so that I keep a family/work/life balance without spending every waking hour on my hobby. However unlike some, for whom a hobby must never be completed, or another must take the place when time allows, I want my car finished asap when money and facilities enable so I can drive it everywhere!

If I was a collector and expected to retain the car for a later profit I would have chosen another car and probably done the work differently - like my 21 year old 928 S4 - it's a live daily driver which has regular rolling work to keep it near new. My 406 is a personal indulgence where I can make real my ideas and fantasies of what I want from the Bristol today, not as it was in 1959. Modernising where possible to make it tasteful, practical, economical and swift plus more comfortable, is my aim. I don't care what others may think and am sure that if I had a 400 I would not want to do what I am doing to the 406. The poor unloved 406 and some other later Bristols lend themselves to improvement and modification without a major impact on their values.

What is paramount when undertaking any restoration is to either work with people who have high standards and open minds (like Alpine Eagle), or make sure that you (as I do) involve yourself through every stage and decision, no matter how minuscule. Get lost of photos and ensure that any changes are over engineered and able to be maintained once completed. Problem with many owners who pay for restorations, and get ripped off, is ignorance and lack of thinking combined and used as an advantage by the dodgy restorers (not all of course).

Having new springs, rubber bushes, fixings, bearings and every part of the engine/clutch combo, I expect my 406 to drive as well or better (preferably) than a new car and last much longer only requiring normal maintenance thereafter.

Clyde

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted by 406Special

We all agree that to acquire a fully restored or decent well cared for unit may cost a lot less than undertaking a restoration, Bristols specifically.
Clyde

Sensible people would only agree, with the caveat that the restoration must be thoroughly documented and be done by a reputable restorer.

But I don't understand why you say "Bristols specifically".

Are you suggesting that Bristols are more expensive to restore than any other classic?

This might apply to the 6 cyl Bristols, but the V8 Bristols would be much cheaper to restore than many contemporary classics which were originally in a similar price bracket.

Kevin

[Hydroglen]

I am not speaking for Clyde, but from my observation on restoration costs,
it all depends on how one factors in "costs". Given comparable conditions
of "scruffiness", the cost of paint, trim, chrome and even mechanicals is
pretty much the same for most makes. It will also cost more to redo a
saloon /sedan than a coupe / 2 door. It follows that a more valuable /
desirable car is "cheaper" to restore, than a more mundane model. But
then it all boils down to how you view the hobby, taste in cars, and how
you spend your money.

I agree with documenting a restoration, but disagree with it being done by a
reputable restorer. I know of many lovely cars that were done privately and
would equal the work of a "reputable" restorer.
Many or most so called "reputable" restorers turn out good work, but they
are largely assembly houses. There is no magic! They put their trousers on
one leg at a time!......Same as you.
They send the chrome out to be done at a plating / polishing shop... same as
you.
They send the engine out to a machine shop to have it's innards redone and
then reassemble, .....same as you.
They have a freelance trim chap come in and retrim the car or take the seats
and panels to a trim shop, ....same as you.
They buy a whiring harness from a specialist shop and install it, ....same
as you.
They may have an in-house panel beater, but then you can take your bits to a
shop that specializes in that work. Same end result.
And so forth........

Therefore if a private owner has the ability and space, he/she can end up
with a product just as good as a "reputable" shop. Much of the work will
have been done by the same shops / tradesmen anyway.

Many collectors enjoy doing their own restoration and the finished product
(if well done) should never take a back row seat to a "reputable" shop.
Cheers,
Dorien